Civil Liability and Ban From Store After Accidental Shoplifting

My question involves criminal law for the state of: AZ

I upset and confused over my 20 year old daughter being accused off shoplifting.

Myself and 2 daughters shopped at Winco, while there one daughter left us and gathered some school supplies for her niece & nephew (my grandchildren). She didn't have the cart and placed an eraser, crayons and scissors in 2 mesh (see through) pencil pouches. Returned to us, showed us what she'd gotten and placed the items in the cart. After shopping for appx 40 more minutes we checked out. The pencil pouches were placed on the conveyor with the other $150+ groceries/items and rung up. I was talking to the cashier (I paid), my 2 daughters were bagging the groceries. No one noticed that the cashier had not rung up the items inside the pencil pouches. We were stopped at the door and my daughter was wisked away. This was a complete oversight. It had been our intention to pay for the items and expectation that they would be rung up. We were not given that option. How can my daughter be accused of shoplifting when nothing was ever concealed?

Because the cashier, the store manager, the law enforcement officers, and the court, have all heard this story of an oversight before. Many, many, many times before. And in all the other cases, the person was shoplifting and only used the "oversight" excuse after they were caught. Maybe your daughter is the sole exception, maybe not, but the fact of the matter is, it's been done before.

Please explain why she did not take the elementary step of removing the items from the pouches before placing the pouches on the conveyor? That would have been the normal thing to do and would have prevented the (quite reasonable under the circumstances) accusation.

I unloaded the cart. It was my oversight.

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Quoting Andi

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I unloaded the cart. It was my oversight.

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She should have made sure the items were removed and paid for or not put them into the pouches. It was not your fault.

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Quoting Andi

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I unloaded the cart. It was my oversight.

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The problem is: *You* may know that, and ....*You* may know that but....*They* don't know that! And they hear that stuff all day long! It gets old, after a while...and they just don't want to hear it anymore. They got (what they believe to be)their culprit and that's that. Unfair but: it is reality. They won't go by what you say (most of the time)but by what they *see*. Your daughter is busted because of what they saw...

The majority of the time store management/security maintains interest in someone is that there's exhibited behaviors that keep them interested, and such is this case here it would appear. How "brave" of mom to claim it was all her "oversight".

Did anyone at any point tell your daughter to 'Tell it to the judge'? Jus' wonderin'.

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Quoting Andi

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How can my daughter be accused of shoplifting when nothing was ever concealed?

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OP, you know why .. you did not pay for something. Its an unfortunate set of circumstances but I think your question should be: why did they not just let us pay and go on our way? But that's up to them.

What the judge, etc., will not believe is this:

The store has these things called Shopping Carts. Your hands get full, you get one, then finish your shopping, placing everything in the cart.

Technically....when she placed the items into another item....she was right then guilty of concealment. Then when the items were not removed and not paid for.....it became Theft.

I have accidentally shoplifted before. Never realized it until I got either to the car or home. Scared me to DEATH! Generally it's been because it's self check-out and it's been a tiny little thing I didn't see. I am ULTRA careful now.
Luckily I have never been caught in my unwitting (and unwilling!) nefariousness.

I've had a similar thing happen. I had two cases of beer. I also had 3 orders (mine, my mom's my grandmothers). So I'm screwing with keeping change sorted. Told the clerk when she first started ringing my stuff up that I had two cases of beer. When told my total, I said "you did get two cases, right?" "Yep". Run my ATM/Debit card. Got home and saw there was only 1 on the receipt.

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The majority of the time store management/security maintains interest in someone is that there's exhibited behaviors that keep them interested, and such is this case here it would appear. How "brave" of mom to claim it was all her "oversight".

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There was nothing "brave" about this. It's simply the truth. I was also the person that paid. It was merely a mistake.

I was initial very surprised by the cynicism here, but I’ve now come to realize I simply, and thankfully, don’t ‘live’ in the same world. My husband and I are professionals that have been blessed with very comfortable lives. Lives, that stealing is simply not a part of, so the accusation of shoplifting incited a tremendous sense of righteous indignation. I am now past that and just see the absurd disservice over-zealous LP agents provide to their employers by painting both distracted patrons with intentional shoplifters with the same broad brush. So be it. It is theirs to mismanage in any way they please.

As an analyst for a large online brokerage firm I see many clients make mistakes, but in my world we do not bully, abuse, fine and fire our client’s for their ‘oversights’. On the contrary we have client advocacy teams that work toward win-win situations. In the above situation, nobody won. I was a loyal 23 year shopper of a competing store, and was now shifting my loyalty to this new store in our area; Winco. With my daughter banned, I will never shop there again. Nor will the rest of my family, and extended family and friends (social, work, neighbor & facebook) , that do know us and know that we would never shoplift and will think twice before doing business them also.

Nobody cares about your big shot analyst job. You are not entitled to blue-ribbon treatment simply by virtue of your profession. Learn from your mistakes and move on.

As mentioned before, everyone from the cashier on up to the DA has heard the "oh, it was an oversight" before, and from people who unquestionably were shoplifting. Even if a message board is willing to take your word for it that you/your daughter was the exception who really did overlook the items, please explain to me why law enforcement should just take your word for it? Do you think that no one with a white-collar job has ever stolen anything before? (Do the names Enron and Worldcom mean anything to you?)

LOL! I have. Didn't you get that.

Yes, I see where you assume that YOU are above suspicion and that YOUR word should be taken absolutely. Sorry, sweetheart, but the world doesn't work that way.

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Quoting Andi

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As an analyst for a large online brokerage firm I see many clients make mistakes, but in my world we do not bully, abuse, fine and fire our client’s for their ‘oversights’.

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HAH! Considering the financial wreck this nation is in, maybe we should!

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Quoting Andi
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As an analyst for a large online brokerage firm I see many clients make mistakes, but in my world we do not bully, abuse, fine and fire our client’s for their ‘oversights’.
HAH! Considering the financial wreck this nation is in, maybe we should!

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Omg! Get a GRIP! Online traders are real, simple people that have 401Ks, IRAs, and individual accounts, not JPM and Citibank or ENRON (they have brokers). Wait a minute am I REALLY talking to real lawyers, because no one with any education would try to make THAT jump.

Let's get back to the original issue. My daughter was charged with shoplifting something I had in my cart, put through the register, paid for, and walked out with?

Yes, and you have yet to explain why law enforcement should simply assume you are telling the truth when you claim it was a mistake, since so many shoplifters make that claim. What is special about you?

I'd agree with the "simple" part.

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Yes, and you have yet to explain why law enforcement should simply assume you are telling the truth when you claim it was a mistake, since so many shoplifters make that claim. What is special about you?

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Honest mistakes can be made. Simply being offered the opportunity to pay for the items should have been an option.

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Quoting Andi

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There was nothing "brave" about this. It's simply the truth. I was also the person that paid. It was merely a mistake.
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Yes, it was a mistake ... but sometimes you have to pay for your mistakes, right? Life's not a do-over ride. Get a lawyer...fight the good fight.

Even acknowledging that honest mistakes can be made, and if you check you'll see that right from the beginning I have never said otherwise, you STILL have not explained why YOU - or, actually, your daughter - is such a special snowflake that YOU should have been offered the opportunity to pay when you did the exact same thing that so many shoplifters have done?

Again, stores provide these things called SHOPPING CARTS. Some provide smaller baskets.

Simple concept: Her hands were full. She could have gotten a cart and then gone back to the display/aisle for her merchandise. Instead, she put them in another item, and the concealed items did not get paid for.

I have suggested all along that our situation did not fall under the cut and dry standard shoplifting situation. Nobody put items in a purse or concealed them under clothing or made any attempt to hide them. My daughter place items together and put them in a cart full of items I was paying for. Tell me, statistically how often do children attempt to shoplift items that their parents are paying for? Do I believe we deserve any special consideration? NO! I believe everyone in my situation deserves special consideration.

Tell me, statistically how often do children attempt to shoplift items that their parents are paying for?

Going just by the posts that we see here? Just about every day.

Since you clearly either cannot or will not get the point I am trying to make, I'm not banging my head against the wall any further. You and your sense of entitlement feel free to fight for laws that will force retailers to let everyone who walks out of the store with unpaid-for merchandise claim that they "overlooked" it and let them pay for it, so that never again can a shoplifter be prosecuted. Just don't hold your breath expecting to see them any time soon. Personally, I think you're just in denial.

cbg out.

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Since you clearly either cannot or will not get the point I am trying to make, I'm not banging my head against the wall any further. You and your sense of entitlement feel free to fight for laws that will force retailers to let everyone who walks out of the store with unpaid-for merchandise claim that they "overlooked" it and let them pay for it, so that never again can a shoplifter be prosecuted. Just don't hold your breath expecting to see them any time soon. Personally, I think you're just in denial.

cbg out.

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I too am done banging my head. I still believe that I live in the United States where a person is considered innocent until proven guilty. I will go back to loyally shopping the same store I have for the past 23 years and pay the $250.00 fine accessed against my daughter, which is actually a little less than my monthly dry-cleaning bill; no biggy.

Where I had been a strong WINCO promoter; I have become a strong detractor. It's all just a shame.

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Quoting Andi

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I have suggested all along that our situation did not fall under the cut and dry standard shoplifting situation. Nobody put items in a purse or concealed them under clothing or made any attempt to hide them. My daughter place items together and put them in a cart full of items I was paying for. Tell me, statistically how often do children attempt to shoplift items that their parents are paying for? Do I believe we deserve any special consideration? NO! I believe everyone in my situation deserves special consideration.

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There is nothing out of the ordinary in your situation. People shoplift by concealing one item inside another all the time.

Have a look at item #3 in this article about shoplifting methods. It happens a lot and that is why you should not expect special consideration.

http://theretailconsultant.blogspot....teal-from.html

There are more methods than this. As the LP technology improves, people look for a new angle. Losses amount to 13 billion per year.

She didn't have the cart and placed an eraser, crayons and scissors in 2 mesh (see through) pencil pouches. Returned to us, showed us what she'd gotten and placed the items in the cart.

(1) she placed items in two mesh pencil pouches. This is concealment.
(2) She showed you what she'd gotten and placed the items in the cart. NOW would have been the time to empty the items out of those pouches and placed them in the cart, so they would not be stolen items later.

If you don't believe us.....please, get a Consultation with a Criminal Defense Lawyer.

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Quoting Andi

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I have suggested all along that our situation did not fall under the cut and dry standard shoplifting situation. Nobody put items in a purse or concealed them under clothing or made any attempt to hide them......... Tell me, statistically how often do children attempt to shoplift items that their parents are paying for?......

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In a purse or under clothing is perfectly irrelevant. Putting them in a pouch, "see-through" or not, is concealment. One more; You'd be amazed how many kids shoplift with their parents either close by or across the store. You'd be equally amazed at how many parents shoplift with their kids.

You can tell your very self-righteous "story" to the judge! You ain't nothing special Sunshine! The main thing you are is CAUGHT!!!!

"I will go back to loyally shopping the same store I have for the past 23 years and pay the $250.00 fine accessed against my daughter, which is actually a little less than my monthly dry-cleaning bill; no biggy.

Did I read correctly, did they not trespass you? Rack up another charge. AND! Is the dry cleaning comment supposed to sway anything like all your other 'status' comments? Try that on for size with the judge, they love that sort of thing. All your status comments illustrate........ I ain't gonna type pompous buffoon, but I'm sure thinking it.

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Quoting souperdave

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You'd be equally amazed at how many parents shoplift with their kids.

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I'll never forget the first time I busted a parent who was showing their child how to shoplift. Really put a dent in my faith in humanity.

If Andi doesn't like our answers.....she is free to have her child plead "Not Guilty" and go before a jury trial.

Follow up – almost 30 days later - I’ve spent a little time reviewing my posts and each of your responses.
My take aways are as follows:
1. None of you are actually attorneys and this website is bogus in terms of what it promotes itself to be.
2. The rabid responses I’ve received clearly indicates that you are all LP agents or in related fields, desperately attempting to validate your existence.
3. I am once again a strong Winco promoter after they have graciously reviewed this incident and correctly found that this was simply an oversight and rescinded both the civil liability and trespass ban.

Carry on. Don't run any red lights while wearing your rose colored glasses.

Hmmmph. I guess you didn't read ALL the posts...

Apologies mmmagique. I did read your post and thank you for it.

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Quoting Andi

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Follow up – almost 30 days later - I’ve spent a little time reviewing my posts and each of your responses.
My take aways are as follows:
1. None of you are actually attorneys and this website is bogus in terms of what it promotes itself to be.
2. The rabid responses I’ve received clearly indicates that you are all LP agents or in related fields, desperately attempting to validate your existence.
3. I am once again a strong Winco promoter after they have graciously reviewed this incident and correctly found that this was simply an oversight and rescinded both the civil liability and trespass ban.

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Actually this site is exactly what it represents itself to be. If you read the terms of use and disclaimers on every page, you will see that.

There are attorneys here. I, for example, am a lawyer.

I have seen people convicted of shoplifting under the type of circumstances you represent. "I didn't know, I forgot, it wasn't 'really' hidden, I could have afforded it," and the like are excuses as old as the hills. The 99.9999% of the time that those excuses are used by lying shoplifters ruin things for the .0001% of the time when the person offering the excuse made an honest mistake. You may not like that reality, but it was one created by shoplifters and not by us.

Your daughter should consider herself lucky.

1. None of you are actually attorneys and this website is bogus in terms of what it promotes itself to be.

And how much did we charge you?

2. The rabid responses I’ve received clearly indicates that you are all LP agents or in related fields, desperately attempting to validate your existence.

Really?
3. I am once again a strong Winco promoter after they have graciously reviewed this incident and correctly found that this was simply an oversight and rescinded both the civil liability and trespass ban.

That was nice of them. In other stores, you would not have gotten someone to listen to you, and charges would have been pressed. I'm sure your kid could not carry everything in her arms, or think to look for a basket......

I don't believe this poster one bit. By rescinding the civil liability and ban, they open themselves up to major liability... Even much more liability than the stop itself.

Side note, I'm not an LP agent. I am however an expert in retail theft, civil demand, shoplifting litigation and LP policies and procedures. Oh and HR matters as well.

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Quoting bam!

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I don't believe this poster one bit. By rescinding the civil liability and ban, they open themselves up to major liability... Even much more liability than the stop itself.

Side note, I'm not an LP agent. I am however an expert in retail theft, civil demand, shoplifting litigation and LP policies and procedures. Oh and HR matters as well.

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Unfortunately it's not uncommon for disgruntled posters to come back later with the sole intention of proving that everyone else is wrong.

We've had folk claim to have had a hearing with a judge on the July 4th weekend. Late Sunday evening, no less.

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Quoting Andi

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.......The rabid responses I’ve received clearly indicates that you are all LP agents or in related fields, desperately attempting to validate your existence.......

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WOW! Seeking validation from the random postings of a pompous ass, or postulating with my own responses in the pursuit of validation, never quite entered into any thought process that I've ever entertained and/or enjoined.

But that's just me I s'pose. :p

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Quoting bam!

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I don't believe this poster one bit. By rescinding the civil liability and ban, they open themselves up to major liability... Even much more liability than the stop itself.

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I'd have to agree! "Andi" is peggin' the BS meter!

I would wager a goodly amount that either some sorta expensive litigator sent "Winco" a letter, or "Andi" is just having an oh-I-must-prove-I-am-better-than-those-people moments that took 30 days or so to fester.

Or perchance; BOTH!