Cited for Turning Left when Right Turn Only Sign Posted - Obstructed Sign
My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California 21461(a)cvc
I was pulled over today because I made a left turn out of a strip mall
parking lot where a "Right Turn Only" sign was posted. I honestly
didn't see the sign prior to being sighted but that's neither here nor
there for a properly posted sign.
After receiving the citation and voicing to the deputy that a sign was
not posted, I returned to the location in question. I didn't pay any
attention to the sign nor notice it because of what you see in the
photos:
http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL68.../402897575.jpg
http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL68.../402897577.jpg
Is this something I can contest in court with confidence?
Re: Cited for Turning Left when Right Turn Only Sign Posted - Obstructed Sign
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Is this something I can contest in court with confidence?
Only if you want the judge to ask you if you ate a bowl of stupid for breakfast.
It's plainly obvious what the sign says, and it's plainly obvious that what you're calling "obstruction" is the work of bored kids with too much time and too few brains on their hands. A sign with an obstructed view would be obscured by tree branches or hidden behind other signage, not merely slapped with a few stickers.
Sorry, no, it's not going to wash, and trying it would only cause you public embarrassment. Don't.
Re: Cited for Turning Left when Right Turn Only Sign Posted - Obstructed Sign
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LawResearcherMissy
Only if you want the judge to ask you if you ate a bowl of stupid for breakfast.
It's plainly obvious what the sign says, and it's plainly obvious that what you're calling "obstruction" is the work of bored kids with too much time and too few brains on their hands. A sign with an obstructed view would be obscured by tree branches or hidden behind other signage, not merely slapped with a few stickers.
Sorry, no, it's not going to wash, and trying it would only cause you public embarrassment. Don't.
Missy, I understand your point and it's exactly the reason why I hesitate to pursue this. However, the technicalities that tempt me to fight it is this:
21461. (a) It is unlawful for a driver of a vehicle to fail to obey a sign or signal defined as regulatory in the federal Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices, or a Department of Transportation approved supplement to that manual of a regulatory nature erected or maintained to enhance traffic safety and operations or to indicate and carry out the provisions of this code or a local traffic ordinance or resolution adopted pursuant to a local traffic ordinance, or to fail to obey a device erected or maintained by lawful authority of a public body or official.
Section 1A.05 Maintenance of Traffic Control Devices From the California Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices
Guidance:
Functional maintenance of traffic control devices should be used to determine if certain devices need to be changed to meet current traffic conditions.
Physical maintenance of traffic control devices should be performed to retain the legibility and visibility of the device, and to retain the proper functioning of the device.
Support:
Clean, legible, properly mounted devices in good working condition command the respect of road users.
Re: Cited for Turning Left when Right Turn Only Sign Posted - Obstructed Sign
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Only if you want the judge to ask you if you ate a bowl of stupid for breakfast.
We need a like button. If you actually want to attempt explaining to a judge you could not understand what the sign meant, go for it. I hope CA does not have strict drivers license retest provisions for people referred by police or court officials.
Re: Cited for Turning Left when Right Turn Only Sign Posted - Obstructed Sign
Sugar, it's not me you have to convince. It's the judge, and I promise, s/he's heard this nonsense before and has laughed 'em out of court.
But you're going to do whatever you want to do, so off you go.
Re: Cited for Turning Left when Right Turn Only Sign Posted - Obstructed Sign
Please recall, your specific question was "Is this something I can contest in court with confidence?"
Missy is telling you what she would do if she were the judge and were presented with your defense. She's not stating that you can't make the argument or that there's no hearing officer in the world who won't accept it - none of us can do that. Do I think the sign is so obstructed or obscured that a reasonable motorist won't figure out what it says? I personally do not.
So neither Missy nor I can assure you that you can contest the ticket with confidence. That's not to say you can't reach your own conclusion, that opinions can't vary, or that you may get lucky in court. It's simply an opinion that the odds don't appear to be on your side.
Re: Cited for Turning Left when Right Turn Only Sign Posted - Obstructed Sign
Besides the sign, what were the pavement markings?
Re: Cited for Turning Left when Right Turn Only Sign Posted - Obstructed Sign
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jVerg
I didn't pay any attention to the sign nor notice it because of what you see in the photos:...
I don't know why that would be something that would catch my eye, and from the pictures, the sign is clearly traffic related and its intent could then be instantaneously recognized.
Often times there are other traffic control devices or indicators that would make such prohibition more clear. (EDITED TO ADD: oops, didn't see CS's post)... None can be seen in your photos because of the angle looking upwards! Of course this makes the photos more difficult to authenticate (no street name signs or any other clear identifying features) for evidentiary purposes, and even *IF* it did hold such value, I still don't think it will get you much more that a fine reduction!
Re: Cited for Turning Left when Right Turn Only Sign Posted - Obstructed Sign
Found it. Note the "No Parking for Mt. Sac Students" sign and the plant.
http://goo.gl/maps/ncSt
The first thing I noticed was how far back the limit line is for the stop sign. You did stop at the limit line, correct?
I do think they could have added a "no left turn" sign on the post on the island that contains the stay right graphic for SE bound, no U turn for NE bound, and "one way" for traffic coming out of the residential area opposite of the strip mall.
Re: Cited for Turning Left when Right Turn Only Sign Posted - Obstructed Sign
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California student
Found it. Note the "No Parking for Mt. Sac Students" sign .
Yeah, I saw that and actually looked at the same lot exit but couldn't tell for sure if that was "THE" sign in question... (even from inside the lot, the sign was impossible to see with the glare)...
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California student
I do think they could have added a "no left turn" sign on the post on the island that contains the stay right graphic for SE bound, no U turn for NE bound, and "one way" for traffic coming out of the residential area opposite of the strip mall.
Actually, for (1), it is more than just a "No Left Turn"... Think about it, a "Right Turn Only" sign prohibits a straight through movement as well. So the only movement that is allowed is a right turn and a "Right Turn Only" on that pole which you described may have been an option. But, according to the 2012 CA-MUTCD:
[QUOTE-=line 13k on page 154]Turn Prohibition signs should be placed where they will be most easily seen by drivers intending to turn.[/QUOTE]
In this case, you're on a decent length approach and you'll likely to be looking forward as you approach the limit line. If you're going to see a sign across 3 lanes on the center island, the likelihood is that you WILL see the sign in its current location. Then you're expected to stop at the limit line (as you suggested), start rolling forward to clear traffic and as you do, you're most likely to look left first, then look right and then maybe left again as you enter the roadway, -you still haven't looked "forward" again since before the stop-. So that might seem like it is an ideal location, but... is it really?
Of course the CVC only requires "ONE" sign and that requirement has been met!
Re: Cited for Turning Left when Right Turn Only Sign Posted - Obstructed Sign
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That Guy
Actually, for (1), it is more than just a "No Left Turn"... Think about it, a "Right Turn Only" sign prohibits a straight through movement as well. So the only movement that is allowed is a right turn and a "Right Turn Only" on that pole which you described may have been an option. But, according to the 2012 CA-MUTCD:
I didn't even think about going straight out. The reason I thought about the island is because the shaft is already there, and you're going to be looking in that general direction as you're waiting for a spot in traffic. It's kinda of a last warning. Of course missing "No right turn [on red]" signs is something I'm familiar with.
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In this case, you're on a decent length approach and you'll likely to be looking forward as you approach the limit line. If you're going to see a sign across 3 lanes on the center island, the likelihood is that you WILL see the sign in its current location. Then you're expected to stop at the limit line (as you suggested), start rolling forward to clear traffic and as you do, you're most likely to look left first, then look right and then maybe left again as you enter the roadway, -you still haven't looked "forward" again since before the stop-. So that might seem like it is an ideal location, but... is it really?
Of course the CVC only requires "ONE" sign and that requirement has been met!
Only 1 is required, but they aren't limited to 1 sign.
Re: Cited for Turning Left when Right Turn Only Sign Posted - Obstructed Sign
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California student
I didn't even think about going straight out. The reason I thought about the island is because the shaft is already there...
I don't know if that is "the shaft"... I am sure there is a shaft involved some times... I'm not seeing this one as being one of them!
In reference to the pole holding the sign, I think the proper term is "breakaway post"
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California student
...and you're going to be looking in that general direction as you're waiting for a spot in traffic.
I'd still imagine one would be looking in the direction of traffic where one is looking for the opening, rather than looking straight forward... You might glance forward to make sure no traffic is coming from the side street across. But if you haven't seen the sign by then, you're not likely to see it, IMO!
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California student
Of course missing "No right turn [on red]" signs is something I'm familiar with.
Correct... In the plural too... Not just one... But... several? :D
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California student
Only 1 is required, but they aren't limited to 1 sign.
True... The sky is the limit... well, and city budget as well!
Did you notice in your thread, from the docs that groove provided, what the cost of installing one sign was?
Re: Cited for Turning Left when Right Turn Only Sign Posted - Obstructed Sign
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That Guy
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California student
I didn't even think about going straight out. The reason I thought about the island is because the shaft is already there....
I don't know if that is "
the shaft"... I am sure there is a
shaft involved some times... I'm not seeing this one as being one of them!
They say this cat Shaft is a bad mother
Shut your mouth
But I'm talkin' 'bout Shaft
Then we can dig it :listening_headphone
Re: Cited for Turning Left when Right Turn Only Sign Posted - Obstructed Sign
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That Guy
I don't know if that is "the shaft"... I am sure there is a shaft involved some times... I'm not seeing this one as being one of them!
In reference to the pole holding the sign, I think the proper term is "breakaway post"
I guess that works too.
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Correct... In the plural too... Not just one... But... several? :D
Thankfully it's a per turn offense and not a per sign offense. http://www.emtlife.com/images/emoticons/ph34r.gif
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True... The sky is the limit... well, and city budget as well!
Did you notice in your thread, from the docs that groove provided, what the cost of installing one sign was?
To be honest, no. Of course I imagine that the cost of the sign itself isn't that much, it's the paperwork and engineering study required to place the sign. Of course with that one they had to place a new breakaway post, while this one is preexisting.
Re: Cited for Turning Left when Right Turn Only Sign Posted - Obstructed Sign
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themadnorwegian
They say this cat Shaft is a bad mother
Shut your mouth
But I'm talkin' 'bout Shaft
Then we can dig it :listening_headphone
Crack me up!!!
What the heck!!! Had to Google that one... You guys watch too much TV!
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California student
I guess that works too.
Actually, it doesn't... Have you ever seen a sign post that is "broken"?
The ones that come to mind ALWAYS actually got BENT right at the point where it meets that concrete, and laid flat until it got replaced.
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California student
Hahaaa... Good point!
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California student
To be honest, no. Of course I imagine that the cost of the sign itself isn't that much, it's the paperwork and engineering study required to place the sign. Of course with that one they had to place a new breakaway post, while this one is preexisting.
Assuming you don't mind, here is the pdf as uploaded by groove:
Page 2: Cost Estimate to move the sign (means the sign has already been bought and paid for. They are only MOVING IT) = $1000 (and most of that probably pays for the labor... Then again, how many man hours does that take?
Page 12 of the pdf: Estimated Cost to follow recommendation: "refurbish pavement markings and stripings and install TWO R13A (NO TURN ON RED) signs for mitigation" = $5000
Split that $5 g's three way (1 for each sign X 2 and 1 for refurbished markings)... Are you freaking kidding me! Reflective paint is that expensive?
Hey, if its needed, its needed... But the next time you're trying to save someone $234 by suggesting "they could have had added another sign or three (even on existing shafts)", think how you as a tax payer are getting shafted!
- - - Updated - - -
Ooops... Left this little detail out: Towne Ave X I-210.pdf document
Re: Cited for Turning Left when Right Turn Only Sign Posted - Obstructed Sign
Give me a sign, a long handled ratcheting box wrench and a few nuts and bolts and I'll place the sign for $20.
Re: Cited for Turning Left when Right Turn Only Sign Posted - Obstructed Sign
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California student
Give me a sign, a long handled ratcheting box wrench and a few nuts and bolts and I'll place the sign for $20.
This is government work... It can't be done for $20! :D
You might need something to drill concrete with for the new post... Maybe some Quickrete to secure it! A level to make sure its upright...