Self-Defense to an Assault and Battery Charge

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Quoting aardvarc

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I carry. I carry ALMOST all the time. But there are places I don't carry - even though I could, because should the presence of the firearm be detected, it's likely to cause people to get their panties in a wad, rather than be a calming presence - and those places INCLUDE doctor's offices. "Hang on doc, before you go to examine me or I take off my shirt and expose my cold blue steel, you need to know I'm armed." Perfectly legal, but still STUPID.

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I have to disagree with ya on this. In fact, given your explanation of telling the doc of the weapon prior to the exam is quite appropriate so he does not simply see the weapon and wonder.

Now, what I think is stupid is while in our state, as long as you carry exposed you do not need a permit so we have these idiots walking down the street every once in awhile that have a pistol strapped to their thigh. Generally it's to evoke a reaction from people, or more specifically, the cops so they can argue their rights to carry.

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Quoting jk

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telling the doc of the weapon prior to the exam is quite appropriate so he does not simply see the weapon and wonder

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Problem is that this presumes that simply telling the doc you're carrying will put the doc at ease. Or your accountant, your convenience store clerk, or indeed MOST people that you're going to encounter in a situated transaction (much different circumstance than just people walking down the street). Closer to reality, however, is that there ISN'T a "nice" way to tell most people that you feel the need to bring your firearm to your APPOINTMENT with them. Absolutely NO reason to walk that firearm into the doctor's office. An action being legal doesn't mean that the basics of human psychology go out the window - rather, announcing one's armed status in a setting like this is going to put the other person in a state of sudden and heightened alert - even if that's not the carrier's intent. And that other person (the doc) is whose shoes the jury is going to see the event from - because most of them would feel the same way. It really isn't about legalities - OP was within the law until, as you pointed out, his poor handing of the situation led to the gun being holstered until arm's reach. I'm saying that his poor decision making began MUCH sooner than that moment.

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Problem is that this presumes that simply telling the doc you're carrying will put the doc at ease. Or your accountant, your convenience store clerk, or indeed MOST people that you're going to encounter in a situated transaction (much different circumstance than just people walking down the street).

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no need to explain it to the convenience store clerk IMO and not sure how the accountant knows, unless you happen to reach the same level of contact with your accountant as you do the doctor :eek:

I can understand respecting any or all of them but realistically, if one is bothered by carrying to the point they feel the need to explain to everybody, maybe they shouldn't be carrying.

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Closer to reality, however, is that there ISN'T a "nice" way to tell most people that you feel the need to bring your firearm to your APPOINTMENT with them

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didn't know nice had a place here. It's a factual thing. If I need to tell them it's : I carry. I have it on me. If it bothers you, and you have the right to demand it, I'll leave. Nothing nice or nasty about it.

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Absolutely NO reason to walk that firearm into the doctor's office.

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so cops should disarm before entering whether it's for business or personal appointments? on or off duty?

I think it raises much more interest to secure your weapon as you set in the vehicle than to leave it as it.

Of course, if a person wants to be really nice they can speak with their doctor prior to wearing it in to get their opinion.

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Quoting Insons Insontis

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I stopped at a local family practice clinic on my way home from work, and provided the clinic with my medical records.

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You had doctors managing your chronic migraines, your high cholesterol, your high blood pressure, your post-surgical care, your tendon injury, your back injury, and perhaps other matters as well, and are married to a doctor. You were scheduled to be treated by one of your doctors later that same day. How did it come to pass that you were unable to have one of your many doctors simply call in your prescriptions to your regular pharmacy, and instead stopped by the clinic of a doctor who didn't know either you or your medical history?

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Quoting Insons Insontis

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The doctor continued to ask degrading questions, and stated, “I am not about to write a bunch of narcotics for headaches.” I again told him that I was not seeking narcotics and that I would trust the specialist over his advice.

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In other words, as you had surely figured out and as the doctor later confirmed, the doctor thought you were pill-seeking - a common problem at walk-in clinics.

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Quoting Insons Insontis

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We continued in this fashion for a few minutes, with him making inappropriate comments about migraine disease, that migraines were over treated and that I was most likely a drug seeker.

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The doctor had... your prescription history. You've not indicated that he had any other part of your medical record. If in fact you presented and simply said, "I'm out of my high blood pressure medications and need a refill," I don't see why there would be a need to discuss your migraines at all, except to the extent that the doctor was concerned about drug interactions. Had you reiterated, "I only want refills on my blood pressure medications," I expect that the doctor's concerns would have been resolved. What really happened?

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Quoting Insons Insontis

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I waited for the nurse to return with my medical records, and then I left the exam room, as I did not want any type of treatment from this “doctor.”

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And then you went home? On to your scheduled medical appointment? Alas... no.

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Quoting Insons Insontis

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As left the exam room, he was standing at the end of the hallway leading to the exit. I yelled out his name, and walked down the hall to the exit. I then stated, “Before I leave here, I wanted to tell you that the reason those people you call idiots, who are actually called patients, go home and kill themselves is because they are treated like criminals by doctors like you.”

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So you chose to instigate a confrontation and create a public disturbance.

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Quoting Insons Insontis

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He responded by grabbing my left arm and squeezing until I yanked my arm away, and then he began to bump his chest against mine. He would continue to push and shove, and call me a “little punk” as I walked towards the security door leading to the lobby. He followed me through the security door, and then he followed me outside the front door of the clinic, into the parking lot, and to my vehicle.

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In other words, you were acting in an unruly fashion so he escorted you out of the building.

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Quoting Insons Insontis

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When he came outside, he used his right hand to sweep his white coat back, and reached behind his back as if reaching for a weapon.... He then threw down his stethoscope on the pavement and told me, “You better get the Hell out of here you little punk.”

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The problem at this point is that your inferences are unsupported by any facts, and your belief that the doctor was going to draw a gun on you (let alone shoot you) is not the product of a rational thought process. This is the second time when, presented with the opportunity to leave, you escalated things.

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Quoting Insons Insontis

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I immediately responded by drawing my firearm as I spun around towards my attacker, and shoved him with my left hand, and pointed the pistol in his face as I screamed, “GET BACK! GET BACK!”

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Did you, perchance, also pistol whip him? Despite all of the details you have shared, I still had trouble finding any articles on what I thought would be a well-covered story, but I did find a police beat column about a guy in Arkansas who pulled a gun on his doctor and struck him in the face with the gun.

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Quoting Insons Insontis

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I never, ever, threatened anyone.

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When you point a gun at somebody, that's a threat.

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Quoting Insons Insontis

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I don’t understand why this happened or what else I could have done to prevent the altercation.

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You could have... left without creating a disturbance. You could have... left when, after you created a disturbance, the doctor escorted you out of the building and told you to leave. You could have responded in a reasonable, rational manner to the doctor's actions, rather than imagining that he was going to pull a gun and shoot you. You could have put your gun away and apologized after you pulled your gun, when you could see plain as day that you were wrong about the doctor's intentions and that you were the only one brandishing a weapon. If you are the guy who hit the doctor in the face with his gun, you could have refrained from doing that.

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Quoting Insons Insontis

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...although his wife did write on her blog about this the next day....

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Alas, I couldn't find this. Down the memory hole?

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Quoting Insons Insontis

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You would have done the exact same thing if you were potentially facing 36 years in prison, and your fate was going to be decided by 12 people that have no understanding of self-defense, nor are they experienced in the legal profession in general.

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Actually, were I on trial with the same facts, my fear would be of having a jury full of people who did understand the laws of self-defense. If your story as shared here is the same as the one you shared with your lawyer, I can see why he apparently urged you to plea bargain.

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Quoting Insons Insontis

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I trusted my attorney to inform me, and repeatedly called him to schedule meetings to talk, and to try and understand what the evidence was against me. We had 3 meetings over the course of a year, and each lasted between 20 and 45 minutes.

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He was the only criminal defense lawyer listed in the phone book?

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Quoting Insons Insontis

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As I said, the prosecution did not even interview any of the witnesses or the supposed victim. This is exactly why Mike Nifong was disbarred in the Duke Lacrosse team case, among other violations he committed.

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Incorrect. Also, it's both routine and proper for prosecutors to leave the investigating to the police, and to make their charging decisions based upon the police report rather than playing detective.

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Quoting Insons Insontis

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Could you please, just for a minute assume the best of me, instead of automatically assuming the worst?

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People who know you filter the facts through their personal knowledge and relationship with you. People who don't know you can only look at the facts. The facts justify the charge and the outcome.

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Quoting Insons Insontis

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..........As left the exam room, he was standing at the end of the hallway leading to the exit. I yelled out his name, and walked down the hall to the exit. I then stated, “Before I leave here, I wanted to tell you that the reason those people you call idiots, who are actually called patients, go home and kill themselves is because they are treated like criminals by doctors like you...............”

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This is/was the pivotal moment and is what bought you the no contest arrangement. Had you not aggravated the situation and simply walked off into the sunset you could've saved your keyboard a lot of stress lately. At one point in your initial post you ask; "...I don’t understand why this happened or what else I could have done to prevent the altercation." Calling out the doc caused your situation. Nothing more, nothing less. Had you not done that there would've been nothing else that transpired.

Your response was most likely aggravated by your consumption of copious amounts of controlled substances.

Soooooooo, the cause, and subsequent solution lies in the person that stares back at you in the mirror. Some members suggested you seek professional help for your mental/psychological/substance abuse difficulties. That would appear to be a very prudent course of action at this point.

Would a moderator or an admin please delete this entire thread please. I am tired of the personal attacks and blatant harassment by every teenager with anger issues. I can't even begin to respond to all of the ignorant assertions in this thread, as everyone is hijacking this post for their own perceived edification. I can't even begin to address all the personal attacks and ignorant assertions, I do not intend to develop a diorama to keep up with the pedantic rantings of people that post for no other reason than to make themselves feel better about their own lives.

Please delete.

Although people have been skeptical of parts of your story, that's quite understandable given the facts that you've stated. There's no law that says we have to accept your claims at face value.

If you insist upon waking up a thread that seemed to have run its course, only to insult the people who have tried to help you with your issues and make ridiculous accusations of "harassment", you're apt to get another ear full of hard truths.

Like this one: I was a teenager once, I don't deny getting angry at times, but I have never been so angry or out-of-control that I hollered insults at my doctor at his office - and certainly not so angry or out of control that I pulled a gun on my doctor or pistol whipped him in the face. Motes vs. beams.

Deleting the thread means that others with similar questions or issues wouldn't be able to access it. If you're tired of it, quit looking at it.

By your own admission you made your situation needlessly worse, then wanna be all coddled by posting here after the Law does their business on ya and you feel you're some sorta victimized. Besides, there was not all that much "ignorant assertions" going on. The responses, which were for the most part spot-on interpretations of what you posted, were not quite what you expected and you kept digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole thinking that you were gonna reach some sorta self justification at some point.

Much like your doctor 'visit', this didn't turn out like you planned and you take the obviously juvenile step of insulting the responses and wanting the whole thing deleted like it never happened. Well sorry about your luck! You're past the point of picking up your toys and running home 'cause someone's not playing nice.

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souperdave;624326] you kept digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole thinking that you were gonna reach some sorta self justification at some point.

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I'm thinking II was hoping to eventually find a opening at the other end of the hole if he dug far enough. The problem was: he kept surfacing here, rather than continuing his dig until he escaped, not covertly but with fanfare and failed to realize that when a skunk does that, the farmer eventually gets a good shot and takes him out.

You don't draw attention to yourself and then complain about the outcome. If you didn't want comment, you should not have invited it.