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LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: Washington
I delivered a discovery request using blewis's template. The PA gave me just the Officer's report. The PA's notice states I can inspect Speeding measuring certificates per IRLJ 6.6(d) in the Courtroom. Does that mean I'll have to go to Issaquah to obtain the certs? Here's the officer's statement although I'm sure it provides little:
LIDAR-
I observed the defendant approaching my location in excess of of the posted 35 MPH limit. I obtained a reading of 49 MPH on def's vehicle at 509 feet. The LTI 20-20/Kustom Pro Laser II/Laser III SMD, #4169 has been certified by the factory and WSP technicians to be in good working order. At the beginning of my shift the LASER SMD's accuracy was checked by (1) internal self-diagnostic test, (2) scope alignment test, and (3) fixed distance/velocity test at 100 ft. I have been trained in the use/operation of the SMD device.
Thanks
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
How nice, he tested his unit. Did it pass? Oh dear, he does not say so. Plus the LTI velocity test requires 2 distances, not one .. oh dear.
They are not checking the LTI 20-20 per the manufacturer's instructions.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
IS that the officer's entire statement? If so, the WA experts will probably be able to pick it apart as it seems...lacking.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
Please scan/photograph the entire discovery response and post it to a picture hosting site, then post the link here. Of course, redact your personal information and the last few digits of the infraction number.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
"Your honor, the officer states that the device has been checked for accuracy but does not state the results of these checks. I move to dismiss as there is no statement from the witness as to the accuracy of the device."
...These guys just keep getting lazier and lazier...
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k1.../statement.jpg
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k1...l/SDC11912.jpg
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k1...l/SDC11908.jpg
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k1...l/SDC11910.jpg
This ticketing operation was as close to a ticket factory as you can get. 3 officers stood in the shoulder with speed guns and continuously pulled over motorists in this speed trap. The speed drops from 60 to 35 so it's a prime spot. I witnessed the 3 officers pull over, ticket, and then immediately pull over the next 3. The officers seemed to confer about their conquests too. I'm not sure if the officer that ticketed me was the one that gunned me. They seemed to be co-mingling their duties. I was surprised that the officer's statement is so simple. This was the full extent of the initial discovery. I haven't received the LIDAR certificates yet, please advise if I need them.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
You have to wonder if discovery even makes a difference. The LIDAR guns are always in working/current order it seems. Even if they weren't - the template where the officer fills in the blanks, has already declared the device as being tested and functioning properly.
As for the "LIDAR certificates". Not sure what difference that makes as well. Has anyone ever gotten an expired certificate? It means nothing more than buying signed a baseball card with a certificate of authenticity.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
He does not say he was stationary or moving and he does not properly describe the SMD ... he is supposed to circle one of the two devices listed I guess. In addition to the errors noted on my previous post.
And he never estimated your speed.
And there are 2 different speeds listed...ticket says 40 .... lidar says 49
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
You have to wonder how ignorant you'd have to be to assume that discovery is only about the LIDAR gun and its certificate.
Personally, I wonder how many opportunities one has in a period of a year where one can learn something, or contribute anything... Instead, all that time is spent being as useless as a house fly... Buzzing around, banging your head up against any glass window you can find, and irritating everybody you come around!
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
HAHAHA! Are you kidding me? I know EXACTLY where they do this. They sit at the 18000 block of 522 in Bothell. There is ABSOLUTELY NO ROOM to operate LIDAR in this area. The shoulder is barely enough to park a car in. I remember driving by a couple weeks ago, seeing them there and saying, "Hmm... they must be using Radar, because there is no way you cold use Lidar in this area."
You're golden in Issaquah without the results of the accuracy checks.
Oh, and if you get Judge LaSalata, definitely tell him (after your case is dismissed) that this is an uphill slope, in a curve, and that you think these officers do not know what they're doing if they're using LIDAR because you can't think of any greater place where sweep effect could be more prominent.
I can't even believe this. *Shakes head* WSP REALLY IS THIS LAZY!
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
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Quoting
That Guy
You have to wonder how ignorant you'd have to be to assume that discovery is only about the LIDAR gun and its certificate.
Personally, I wonder how many opportunities one has in a period of a year where one can learn something, or contribute anything... Instead, all that time is spent being as useless as a house fly... Buzzing around, banging your head up against any glass window you can find, and irritating everybody you come around!
Proof of training...traffic surveys? Maybe a certificate from LTI saying the device passed quality control (like they would ever say otherwise)? Are those supposed to be magical now?
The case report has declared the LIDAR devices to already be working - via use of a template. It's not like the individual officer actually typed it, it's simply fill-in-the-blank. Essentially - the devices cannot be challenged.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
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lostintime
The case report has declared the LIDAR devices to already be working - via use of a template. It's not like the individual officer actually typed it, it's simply fill-in-the-blank. Essentially - the devices cannot be challenged.
Well, he did not ID the SMD he used so that's an issue. And the devices can be challenged - at least via their supporting documentation.
Right now, the cop did not testify to which SMD he used. And the Kustom v. LTI has different operational checks. LTI Has a delta distance chk that I do not see was performed. You agree?
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
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lostintime
Has anyone ever gotten an expired certificate?
Yes, in fact we have. Many times. My last ticket was dismissed over the LIDAR's re-certification period AS THE STATE PATROL DEFINES IT having being expired. They state "a minimum of once every two years". If they aren't complying with their own testing program, then the device cannot be authenticated as reliable. This is simple logic. Not every officer gives a rip about whether the unit is within the last testing period or not. 99% of people never challenge a ticket. The 1% that do? 99% of them don't know that if the cert is expired that you can get the case dismissed. Not to poke you in the eye with a stick or anything, but it seems you're not to grasping the concept.
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It means nothing more than buying signed a baseball card with a certificate of authenticity.
Yes, and just like baseball cards without the certificate of authenticity they aren't worth the paper they are printed on. A LIDAR without a current cert is bogus in EVERY LAST COURT in Washington. Period.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
It's also exceedingly rare for that happen. Impossible, no. No one is going to believe a sizeable percentage were written with an expired certificate. The reality is, they could just have a "stock certificate" for every system that is always current - if they wanted t.
Good to know WA at least has some sort of LIDAR protocol. It's non-existent elsewhere.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
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BrendanjKeegan
HAHAHA! Are you kidding me? I know EXACTLY where they do this. They sit at the 18000 block of 522 in Bothell. There is ABSOLUTELY NO ROOM to operate LIDAR in this area. The shoulder is barely enough to park a car in. I remember driving by a couple weeks ago, seeing them there and saying, "Hmm... they must be using Radar, because there is no way you cold use Lidar in this area."
You're golden in Issaquah without the results of the accuracy checks.
Oh, and if you get Judge LaSalata, definitely tell him (after your case is dismissed) that this is an uphill slope, in a curve, and that you think these officers do not know what they're doing if they're using LIDAR because you can't think of any greater place where sweep effect could be more prominent.
I can't even believe this. *Shakes head* WSP REALLY IS THIS LAZY!
Ok, so please assist in helping me articulate this as a motion to dismiss. I have no experience presenting a legal argument. Would you recommend I use an attorney for this? Thanks
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BrendanjKeegan
"Your honor, the officer states that the device has been checked for accuracy but does not state the results of these checks. I move to dismiss as there is no statement from the witness as to the accuracy of the device."
...These guys just keep getting lazier and lazier...
Wouldn't the results of these checks be in the SMD logs? Is it common for the officer to go into the results in his/her statement? Sorry for being a noob, I just lack any experience with this matter.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
Lidar detectors do not work as well with lidar units. Mostly due to the fact that if the lidar beam is directed at the license plate of a vehicle rather than the windshield, where the detector usually is located, the lidar beam goes undetected. The speeding evidence obtained by Radar or Lidar speed measurement is only as good as the officer presenting the evidence to the judge. In order for the evidence to be useful in traffic court it must be ruled admissible based on sufficient reason to believe that it is valid. Lidar is known to be more accurate than radar. Mostly due to the operating principles of lidar and the laser beam that bounced back from the speeding car. However, speeding tickets issued by Lidar are dismissed by the traffic court if it can be established that the lidar unit malfunctioned or the conditions were such that the speed reading was distorted by other factors.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
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FloraL123
However, speeding tickets issued by Lidar are dismissed by the traffic court if it can be established that the lidar unit malfunctioned or the conditions were such that the speed reading was distorted by other factors.
Really? In what state? It sure isn't Washington. You won't get anywhere with the malfunction argument because YOU cannot prove that it malfunctioned. If you think you can, I'd like to hear how. Not many judges here will go either of these arguments.
If the cert is out of date, they have to toss the speed readings upon motion. Notice the following says shall. Not maybe.
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Quoting IRLJ 6.6
(c) Continuance. The court at the time of the formal hearing
shall hear testimony concerning the infraction and, if necessary,
may continue the proceedings for the purpose of obtaining
evidence concerning an electronic speed measuring device and the
certification thereof. If, at the time it is supplied, the
evidence is insufficient, a motion to suppress the readings of
such device shall be granted.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
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bahl
Ok, so please assist in helping me articulate this as a motion to dismiss. I have no experience presenting a legal argument. Would you recommend I use an attorney for this?
Haha. It's simple, like I said earlier: "Your honor, the officer states that the device has been checked for accuracy but does not state the results of these checks. I move to suppress the speed reading and dismiss as there is no statement from the witness as to the accuracy of the device."
You can do it yourself. But if you don't want to go sit through court and read two sentences, then you can have a lawyer do it for you for $2-300.
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bahl
Wouldn't the results of these checks be in the SMD logs? Is it common for the officer to go into the results in his/her statement? Sorry for being a noob, I just lack any experience with this matter.
Hahahahaha. SMD logs. You read that, Speedy/Barry? Sometimes I get a kick out of some of these OP's naivety. :)
A little thing about Washington: The officer's are not required to present an log of accuracy checks for their SMD (other states - like FL, KS, ND, and MT to name a few - this is required). In WA they only need to testify that they checked the device within a reasonable amount of time and that it was in proper working order. Because of this, most officers don't even keep a log of how many times they check the device. Do I agree with this? No. Do I think that a majority of officers don't do these tests? Yes. Can I prove it? Nope.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
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Speedy Gonzalez
Not to poke you in the eye with a stick or anything, but it seems you're not to grasping the concept.
You might want to start explaining what a "concept" is... I tried several times and couldn't get through to him!
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
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That Guy
You might want to start explaining what a "concept" is... I tried several times and couldn't get through to him!
I understand the concept, onionhead.
It's still going to be extremely rare for them to ever hand over an expired certificate. Let's not present these ultra-rare events like they are somehow the norm.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
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BrendanjKeegan
Do I think that a majority of officers don't do these tests? Yes. Can I prove it? Nope.
All you need to do is go down to the police station and watch...if you are so inclined.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
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lostintime
I understand the concept, onionhead.
It's still going to be extremely rare for them to ever hand over an expired certificate. Let's not present these ultra-rare events like they are somehow the norm.
Au contraire, mon frère. It actually happens quite frequently for WSP tickets because the two geniuses the Washington State Patrol employs to run their certification program are both a couple bricks short of a load.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
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lostintime
I understand the concept, onionhead.
It's still going to be extremely rare for them to ever hand over an expired certificate. Let's not present these ultra-rare events like they are somehow the norm.
I was dismissed on an expired cert. Pretty common I would think, they are just playing the numbers game and cost analysis with budgets.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
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Speedy Gonzalez
Au contraire, mon frère. It actually happens quite frequently for WSP tickets because the two geniuses the Washington State Patrol employs to run their certification program are both a couple bricks short of a load.
It's still an outlier, no denying it does happen.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
I think its time for a review:
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lostintime
Has anyone ever gotten an expired certificate?.
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Speedy Gonzalez
Yes, in fact we have. Many times. My last ticket was dismissed over the LIDAR's re-certification period AS THE STATE PATROL DEFINES IT having being expired.
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lostintime
It's also exceedingly rare for that happen.
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lostintime
I understand the concept, onionhead.
It's still going to be extremely rare for them to ever hand over an expired certificate.
You can pretend all you want... But if you still think its "extremely rare" then you either have no clue what that term means or how it compares to "quite frequently"! And if that is the case, then NO, you quite clearly do NOT understand the concept! And in cases where someone is obviously in over their head, they would simply try and make as quiet an exit as possible! You on the other hand (and based on the following quotes:
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Speedy Gonzalez
It actually happens quite frequently for WSP tickets...
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gogodawgs
I was dismissed on an expired cert. Pretty common I would think...
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lostintime
It's still an outlier, no denying it does happen.
.... You still do not understand the concept!
"Stubborn as a mule"... A mule would have learned the correct answer by now... You are still insisting you have a clue!
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
Expired certificates...maybe within 3 standard deviations. There's no way exact way to quantify that, yet it's simply hard to believe that an "elite professional police organization" (according to their website) like the Washington Patrol would forget to keep their records up to date - especially with the amount of LIDAR tickets they write.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
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lostintime
Expired certificates...maybe within 3 standard deviations. There's no way exact way to quantify that, yet it's simply hard to believe that an "elite professional police organization" (according to their website) like the Washington Patrol would forget to keep their records up to date - especially with the amount of LIDAR tickets they write.
OK, that's all I needed to hear, Broseph. You actually put any stock in ANYTHING the WSP says... You've officially sunk to dummy status. It happens all the time. You're wrong. You lose.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
So, it should now be well-known that the WSP is lazy?
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
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lostintime
So, it should now be well-known that the WSP is lazy?
Yep. And that you're gullible.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
They probably use the LIDAR guns to play laser tag
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
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lostintime
They probably use the LIDAR guns to play laser tag
And you use your fantasy world to play dumber than dumb.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
That's how you're making it sound. They rarely keep the certificates up to date in WA. Gotta put them to use somehow.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
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lostintime
That's how you're making it sound. They rarely keep the certificates up to date in WA. Gotta put them to use somehow.
OMG.... you did not seriously do a 180 just now.... </done with you>
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
I received the basic discovery(officer's statement, NOI) directly from the PA's office. It stated I would need to contact the county clerk in Issaquah to obtain anything further including speeding gun certs. I spoke to the clerk and they told me it was ok to fax in my request. I faxed it prior to the deadline, about 15 days beforehand. I only have a copy of the successful fax transmission as proof. I did not receive the discovery materials as of yet, 4 days before the trial.
Somebody please advise, did I follow proper procedure? Could I motion for dismissal based on incomplete discovery?
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
Go to the court and get a copy. It will be on file. If it is on file with the court, then the prosecutor has no obligation to provide it to you.
You actually don't even need to do this... here is what SHOULD be on file...
https://fortress.wa.gov/wsp/smdsearc...tionPrint/1767
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
Here is a link to the cert. on my LIDAR. Is there anything here that is worth presenting?
https://fortress.wa.gov/wsp/smdsearc...tionPrint/1767
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Speedy Gonzalez
Go to the court and get a copy. It will be on file. If it is on file with the court, then the prosecutor has no obligation to provide it to you.
You actually don't even need to do this... here is what SHOULD be on file...
https://fortress.wa.gov/wsp/smdsearc...tionPrint/1767
I have court Thursday and want to make sure I making the proper motion. As per BrendanjKeegan, I am using the following argument, "Your honor, the officer states that the device has been checked for accuracy but does not state the results of these checks. I move to suppress the speed reading and dismiss as there is no statement from the witness as to the accuracy of the device."
Do I make this motion prior to the prosecution presenting their case? Also, the clerk informed me the Prosecutor usually confers with the defendant before the trial. Should I inform the PA of my motion before the trial. Finally, I'll be in front of Judge Green out of Renton who is filling in at Issaquah. Any tips greatly appreciated.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
DO NOT inform the prosecutor of your motion. The PA probably wants to offer you a "plea bargain" (such as, plead guilty to a cell phone violation, which does not go on your record). If it were me, I'd probably take the deal -- your motion is NOT very strong -- but that's just me. Personally, I don't know anything about your judge. Brendan may, so I'd listen to his advice.
Barry
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
Did it ever occur to you people that most likely the person who issued the ticket doesn't really give a shitt what the disposition of the ticket is ? - at the beginning of every month they give them a book of 25 and tell em to write them, (theres no score card for dispositions),......I have a permanent callus on my index finger from writing tickets in Oregon and as long s I wrote the in-house "batting average" they loved me.....the only time I cared about what the disposition was was when an individual was an 18 carat asswhole - I knew cops who only wrote LOW speeds because they resulted in more trials......(ie, 67 in a 55)...."Oh please sir don't plead not guilty I may have to go to court on overtime and sit in this nice warm court room and not have to respond to shitty domestic complaints while I'm off the road"
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
If it's La Salata, he eats the no results argument up. And you don't need to get too complicated.
Verbatim the argument I had my wife use in front of La Salata:
"Your honor, I move dismissal. While Officer Sloppy states that s/he tested the LIDAR, Officer Sloppy never gives the results of those tests."
Something else I just noticed about your ticket. You made the same assumption on the LIDAR's tag number that I did. Is it 4169 or L1169? Could be either if you compare the Notice Of Infraction and the sworn statement. Sure looks like L1169 on the NOI, and 4169 on the statement. Well, Officer Sloppy, which one was it? Compare the other 4 on the NOI to the "LI" on the affidavit. Looks really close to me. If you can convince the judge (who is not a handwriting expert, s/he's a judge) that it is "4169", then there is no such device, and as such NO valid SMD evidence.
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Re: LIDAR Ticket King County, Washington
That's funny. Unfamiliar with the process, I went to the courthouse. Armed only with the statement, I spent an hour and a half looking through the sloppy 6 inch binder of speed gun certs. I was looking for 4169. Of course I never found it, and it was there I found out about the online record, and after looking at NOI, I realized L1169 is the true number.
Would I present this invalid SMD argument as a motion? Won't the prosecutor chime in that it is L1169? Or am I allowed to present my argument without interruption and the judge rules on it? Should I present the no results motion first and then try the invalid SMD number argument? Thanks
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Quoting
Speedy Gonzalez
If it's La Salata, he eats the no results argument up. And you don't need to get too complicated.
Verbatim the argument I had my wife use in front of La Salata:
"Your honor, I move dismissal. While Officer Sloppy states that s/he tested the LIDAR, Officer Sloppy never gives the results of those tests."
Something else I just noticed about your ticket. You made the same assumption on the LIDAR's tag number that I did. Is it 4169 or L1169? Could be either if you compare the Notice Of Infraction and the sworn statement. Sure looks like L1169 on the NOI, and 4169 on the statement. Well, Officer Sloppy, which one was it? Compare the other 4 on the NOI to the "LI" on the affidavit. Looks really close to me. If you can convince the judge (who is not a handwriting expert, s/he's a judge) that it is "4169", then there is no such device, and as such NO valid SMD evidence.