My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of:FL
.....display your middle finger to another driver whilst driving down the road? (No...the other driver ISN'T a LEO)
Well I did recently, would I do it again? nope, it was an ignorant thing to do... what it was, was a quick reaction to the civilian driver that VERY NEARLY HIT ME when he over-shot his lane....I can count on one hand the number of times I've done it, and I've been driving a long time.... immediately afterwards wouldn't you know it, in my rear view mirror? no less than a state police barking his siren, he then pulled along side of me, he was EXTREMELY ANGRY, his face was very red, and everything happened so fast I can't remember all that was said but in the conversation (While we were side by side going down the road) one of the first things he screamed, and I mean this guy was screaming, he was really really angry, was "put on your seat belt"..it stunned me at first, because I HAD my seatbelt on, I just looked at him because for a split second I didn't know what he was talking about, so I pulled the shoulder strap up and said "I have my seatbelt on", he then proceded to tell me in a belittling fashion that he "better never see my finger come out of that window again" of course what do you say to someone WITH a gun, and who is Clearly agitated and who can conjure up almost anything and arrest you or at least rain on your day....I told him I wouldn't...I did mention I did that because the guy ALMOST ran into me, his reply? "I Don't care, you don't do that".....mind you now, this ENTIRE conversation is taking place on a busy 3 lane hwy going about 35-40 mph, I wanted to ask him WHY didn't he go after the guy that nearly hit me, common sense told me though in his current state of mind, it was obvious to me that he wasn't thinking rationally, so I didn't persue it, I just let him finish, he did, then he pulled in behind me, probably ran my tag and got my info, then followed me for a coupe miles then turned off....
Afterwards I got to thinking, I guess thats why he never stopped me, he had no legal reason too; I hadn't broken ANY traffic laws at all, of course that doesn't mean anything.....but he never stopped me....maybe he was having a bad day, maybe not, but I want to tell you this guy was REALLY ANGRY....it's disturbing to me that there seem to be so many out there like that.....and THAT'S the reason I'm polite and non-challenging and I tell my loved-ones to do the same when engaged with the police, because you could very very easily loose your life, very quickly
Giving the Finger to Other Drivers
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02-22-2012, 04:10 PMNCC 1701Giving the Finger to Other Drivers
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02-22-2012, 05:17 PMdavidmcbeth3Re: Is It Against the Law To
Why you are pleading your case roadside is a mystery ... if a cop pulls you over, you are getting a ticket almost all the time.
The cop is wrong of course. I sometimes give cops who cut me off the finger .. its a road "salute" -
02-22-2012, 05:48 PMBrendanjKeeganRe: Is It Against the Law To
This is actually a first amendment question. Doesn't really have anything to do with traffic law.
However, I will try to answer and keep this short and sweet.
Cohen v. California, 403 U.S. 15 (1971), held that:A great deal of arguing in that case was if the display of an expletive is a "gesture" or was indeed "speech." The court found that the written words WERE, indeed, speech.Quote:
"absent a more particularized and compelling reason for its actions, the State may not, consistently with the First and Fourteenth Amendments, make the simple public display here involved of this single four-letter expletive a criminal offense."
Starting this argument again would just be time-consuming and would be the complete opposite of judicial economy.
One could argue disorderly conduct, but if you were cited for this, you could argue with a federal case in which the defendant won summary judgment (with some help from the ACLU) when the court agreed that "flipping-off" a police officer was not, in and of itself, disorderly conduct.
With that, I close with a quote from one of my personal favorite SC cases: "One of the prerogatives of American citizenship is the right to criticize public men and measures -- and that means not only informed and responsible criticism, but the freedom to speak foolishly and without moderation." Baumgartner v. US, 322 U. S. 665 (1944) -
02-22-2012, 08:22 PMCalifornia studentRe: Is It Against the Law To
Is it a gesture of speech, or an inappropriate hand signal? Appropriate hand signals are governed by statutes. Furthermore, do you want to go through the hassle of fighting a ticket for something silly like this even if it is a guaranteed win?
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/.../0316.157.html -
02-22-2012, 08:34 PMSpeedy GonzalezRe: Is It Against the Law To
Personally? I would have been so far up this officer's watch commander's... well you know... with a microscope that he wouldn't be able to walk for SIX MONTHS.
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02-23-2012, 06:48 PMNCC 1701Re: Is It Against the Law To....just for the record, it wasn't a LEO I extended the middle digit too....Quote:
Quoting BrendanjKeegan
Quote:
Quoting Speedy Gonzalez
Sure.....I thought about that....I also thought about the recourse, this guy didn't come across friendly at all, afterwards I thought, you know he could've really got his point across in a much more mature way than screaming, yelling and threatening me like he did, so taking his actions in to consideration, I'd say he was a vindictive individual also and one who would really enjoy retaliating to some kind of complaint by a citizen, so I just let it go......
It's discouraging and sad that so many LEOs find it necessary to behave in a manner like this..... -
02-23-2012, 08:09 PMBrendanjKeeganRe: Is It Against the Law To
I definitely agree to your last sentence. I know a couple of the LEOs on this forum would actually prefer that a complaint be filed. I distinctly remember a thread where they had said so.
I honestly think you should go through the proper avenues of filing a complaint. After all, aren't they there to SERVE us? In my opinion, half of their job is customer service, half of their job is protection. They seem to forget about the first part all the time. -
02-25-2012, 06:11 PMThat GuyRe: Is It Against the Law ToAt the end of the day, and while you can claim your rights to free speech... So can the cop.Quote:
Quoting NCC 1701
Take away his badge and his gun for a minute... He felt he had something to say, and he said it.
Give him his badge and his gun back................ He felt he had something to say, and he said it.
The simple fact that he had a badge and a gun, that you were intimidated by both and sat there and listened, does not mean much really. Even though you're now thinking "he couldn't have stopped me, I did nothing wrong", you're also right in thinking that he really could have... But he didn't...
So why is this any different than the average Joe pulling up next to you and expressing his opinion?
Let me add this question: If it was a priest or a rabbi who'd chewed you out, would you have started a thread about it? (and the reason I included the Rabbi was to simply avoid any commentary about priests not being "holier than thou"... catholic church problem of late.... etc!)Quote:
Quoting BrendanjKeegan
Exactly... But even without a ticket, even if it was just a 10 minute traffic stop, is it worth the extra scrutiny by the cop? Or the time it took to post the story online?Quote:
Quoting California student
Watch commander is not under any obligation to allow you to get that close to his you know what. Nor is he required to stand their and take abuse from anyone... he can simply hand you the complaint form and walk away... Actually, he doesn't have to hand it to you. He can get one of his underlings to do so!Quote:
Quoting Speedy Gonzalez
Wait up.... Lets go back to the top...Quote:
Quoting NCC 1701
I'm not defending the cop or trying to justify his actions, I am just saying!!! But honestly... Did a simple hand gesture cause this one officer to react that way or was there more to it than a simple "up-yours"??? I mean was he really that close or did you simply go way out of your way to express your feelings and he couldn't have missed what you did!
Either way, if we're going to question his reaction, I think we should also consider yours.... Could a simple honk of your horn have been more appropriate course of action in response to what might have been a simple error (overshooting his lane) that you yourself admit to a making a handful of times? Or is flipping the bird the only way to react when someone overshoots their lane?
Uhmmm.... Sorry, and no disrespect intended, a legit question: Taking your actions into consideration says what about you??? AGAIN, I'm not defending the cop or trying to justify his actions, I am STILL just saying!!!Quote:
Quoting NCC 1701
Yeah.. Well think about the fact that not only LEOs carry guns! And the fact still remains that you can only control your own behavior and you can only rationalize your own reactions, You don't know how anyone will react in response to your gesture. Whether it was the driver you reacted to who might have had a gun, or the officer whom, to you, seemed hateful and vindictive because he chewed you out... (although he really could have ruined your day if he'd wanted to)... Spontaneous as it may have been, you took a chance that day by expressing yourself in the manner you did!Quote:
Quoting NCC 1701
My understanding is that the general consensus is "if you feel it is appropriate, then feel free to file a complaint", or at least that is my opinion. Keep in mind that the LEA is not under any obligation to take action and if they do, they are not obligated to inform you of or if any was taken.Quote:
Quoting BrendanjKeegan
Well, lets re-examine that Brendan... For the first half, "customer service"... and if we were to examine the distribution of the happy customers versus unhappy, I'd guess the majority of a cop's customers are plain ole pissed off (a citation, arrest, investigation, ... etc)!!!Quote:
Quoting BrendanjKeegan
As for the other half, relating to "protection", same analogy applies... They are protecting the good half from what can potentially be described as the bad half. And so half of the second half you alluded to (i.e. a quarter), are pissed off!
That means that 3/4 (75%) of the people they deal with, are either thankless, unappreciative, or plain old hateful towards them... Imagine yourself in a job where most of those you deal with hate you, or at least dislike you... I would assume you would have to come off as authoritative right from the get go... Otherwise, it might get hairy if they start acting in a defiant manner... If you were to do that 8 to 10 hours a day 4 to 5 days a week, eventually it becomes your persona, and your attitude. And while I might agree with you if you'd said that some of them have a nasty attitude, in fact I will voluntarily tell you that I have had the misfortune of having dealt with a few assholes in my past, I still have a couple whom are good friends, and know a few more who are good people whom I admire, trust and look up to, and my respect for the good ones isn't diminished by the few bad apricots out there... Although I would make every effort to avoid being found in situations where I an subject to their scrutiny and/or control.
So while its true that they have to serve and protect you and I, and while you might not see it as being so obvious, they will probably risk more for you than you would obviously risk for them, regardless of how thankful you are, but they may not agree that this makes them subservient to you! -
02-26-2012, 08:59 PMlostintimeRe: Is It Against the Law To
^^^^
Using "bad apricots", just for sensationalism. Everyone knows it's "bad apples". -
02-27-2012, 06:21 PMThat GuyRe: Is It Against the Law Tolostintime contribution meter: ZERO out of 132!Quote:
Quoting lostintime