Is Mom Going to Be Living High on the Hog

My question involves child support in the State of: New York

I'm Dad, and mom (my ex GF of 14 yrs) is filing papers for child support from me. This sitaution is a tad bit different than most, so any guidance is much apprecited.

Mom has another child (not mine) who's 17 who's dad has been paying unofficial support for, for 14 years.

Mom's other child (my daughter / 13) was supported and raised by both of us until recently when we split and I moved out.

Other facts: #1: Mom is currently unemployed but will be employed most likely within 30-60 days.
#2: My income varies rather greatly from year to year because I'm a commissioned sales person.
#3: Mom states that she is requesting CS from each of us two fathers for each of our respective children.
#4: My income may very possible go down greatly in 2012, but 2011 was rather good from an historic
Perspective.

Question: From what I see in NY there is a 17% cap for one child. However, will the judge take into account the other father's CS (from the other child / 17) when calculating mine? Or does she just get to keep having children with other men so to keep getting more money to aggregate @17% / per child?

Question: How can a judge determine what my 17% will be...if I don't even know what my income will be? If he looks at my 2011 income (170k) and my 2010 income (70k) how can he predict the future and award her a figure if we don't even know what my figure will even be in this upcoming year?

If there's any other vital aspects that anyone needs to know to give me a reasonable idea of what the answers to these questions are, please ask me. And thank you in advance for any light you can shed.

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Quoting johnny333

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#2: My income varies rather greatly from year to year because I'm a commissioned sales person.

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I'll be vital that you're able to show the court the variable nature of your income. I'd have to imagine that income generated from commissioned sales is dependent on product demand, business cycles within the year (ie slow times), and other factors that may impact earnings. While most CS hinges on annual income, often derived from documents like tax returns, you should endeavor to show the court your earnings across pay periods rather than a lump annual amount. If you can provide this for a couple of years worth, it may give the court a better idea of your earnings upon which to base your amount, rather than just looking at the bottom line annual figure for one good (current) year.

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3: Mom states that she is requesting CS from each of us two fathers for each of our respective children.

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Exactly as she should. You're responsible for providing for your child, and the other father for their child.

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#4: My income may very possible go down greatly in 2012, but 2011 was rather good from an historic Perspective.

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See answer above. The court isn't likely to consider what might happen in the future - it'll go by what has already happened historically. If 2012 starts stacking up to reflect a SUBSTANTIAL decrease in your income, that would be what the court considers a "change of circumstances" that would allow you to petition for modification of the amount.

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From what I see in NY there is a 17% cap for one child. However, will the judge take into account the other father's CS (from the other child / 17) when calculating mine?

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Nope. That's the cap they can take from you for your child. It's the amount they can take from the other father for his child.

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Or does she just get to keep having children with other men so to keep getting more money to aggregate @17% / per child?

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So long as she can find men willing to make babies with her, and she's willing to pursue them to support those children, she can collect up to 17% per child until she's had a child with every man in the state. The only child legally relevent to the amount that YOU pay is your own child.

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Question: How can a judge determine what my 17% will be...if I don't even know what my income will be? If he looks at my 2011 income (170k) and my 2010 income (70k) how can he predict the future and award her a figure if we don't even know what my figure will even be in this upcoming year?

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Judges have to use a little rough justice. As noted above, they'll have to do the best they can by looking at your earnings history. If the judge ends up being way off the mark, you have an avenue to request a reevaluation.

So, so very helpful. Thank you very much Catherine.

Will it benefit me in any way, or rather, will the court care about the fact that Mom and both girls currently reside in my home that I purchased for all of us 6 years ago. Mom is on the title with me but the mortgage is in my name.

I guess what I'm trying to articulate is that I've been rather amiable in this whole process and left them with a beautiful home...and all of its contents of which I put over 100k into.

I mean, just because I had a child with her, does that really mean that she gets to live in the beautiful home, while I will now struggle to afford some dump apartment? Again, does she really get all that moeny from both of us Dads while she gets her nice diggs too? Hell, and what about once she gets her $50-60k/yr job? What will happen then...is that when she buys the nice little porsche?

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Will it benefit me in any way, or rather, will the court care about the fact that Mom and both girls currently reside in my home that I purchased for all of us 6 years ago. Mom is on the title with me but the mortgage is in my name.

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Who is paying the mortgage?

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Again, does she really get all that moeny from both of us Dads while she gets her nice diggs too? Hell, and what about once she gets her $50-60k/yr job? What will happen then...is that when she buys the nice little porsche?

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For an "amiable" split, you sure sound bitter and pissed. And I get that. But child support is not about you, not about her, and not about anyone else she has children with. It's about your child, and her absolute right to be financially supported by BOTH parents.

Let me try and better express my situation. This is not me blaming anyone other than myself, just stating the unarguable facts.

Basically I was 20 years old...college student...supporting myself. Crossed paths with this woman (mom). We hooked up (affair). Six months into the affair she became pregnant with my daughter (even though she swore that she couldn't get pregnant). She had, at that time, 3 other children from her husband. He was a near complete failure financially and she left him and went on her own with her 4 children (one of which was mine).

I finished school, started my career and moved in with all of them. At that time I was 21 and helping to support and raise 4 young children. So I've been in the picture for a while and helped raise these kids with her over the 14 years we were together. Then a few years after living together in a rental home, my career afforded me the ability to buy a home; a nice one, but it needed alot of work.

We spent 6 years making it the nicest house on the block while raising these great kids who are all quite remarkable and smart kids. They went from financial doldrums, to living the American dream...pool and all. During that time I showed all of them, including mom, some amazing things and traveled to far off exotic locations. It really opened ALL of their eyes to a world they only thought existed on TV.

Frankly, that's the concise version of the last 14 years of my life as I do not intend to bore you. So essentially yes, I am quite bitter if she gets to have all of these nice things considering all that I've done for her and her children (3 of which are not even mine). Further, I understand the definition of "being screwed," just looking for validation that that is in fact what is going to happen to me, officially by the courts.

PS: She has been paying the mortgage.

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Quoting johnny333

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Will it benefit me in any way, or rather, will the court care about the fact that Mom and both girls currently reside in my home that I purchased for all of us 6 years ago. Mom is on the title with me but the mortgage is in my name. I guess what I'm trying to articulate is that I've been rather amiable in this whole process and left them with a beautiful home...and all of its contents of which I put over 100k into.

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Very generous. Hopefully they'll appreciate and respect those things.

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I mean, just because I had a child with her, does that really mean that she gets to live in the beautiful home, while I will now struggle to afford some dump apartment?

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No. not because you had a child with her. But because of THIS: Mom is on the title with me but the mortgage is in my name. Having children didn't put her name on that title. Having children doesn't factor into that at all. What DOES factor is that you PUT her name on it. Why men are willing to put a woman on the title of their home and make babies with her, but don't marry her to provide legal protections for themselves and their children will always be beyond me.

The sad reality that we too often have to explain here is that having a relationship with and creating children with someone - without formalizing the contract called "marriage" - means that you have no access to the process intended to end a relationship with equitable distribution of assets and liabilities, called a divorce. That you additionally titled the largest asset that most people ever have in their lives, their home, to her, in the absence of that legal protection, is the entire crux of that part of the issue. Now, you're in a position where you should be consulting with a real estate attorney to determine your possible moves regarding the home.

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Again, does she really get all that moeny from both of us Dads while she gets her nice diggs too?

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Yep. Each dad made a baby. Each dad writes a check. Or seeks to have custody themselves. You gave her the house when you didn't have to, that's not on her - gotta look in the mirror on that one.

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Hell, and what about once she gets her $50-60k/yr job?

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Then the kids will REALLY be doing well.

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What will happen then...is that when she buys the nice little porsche?

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Or the new Mercedes sport model looks nice. Seriously - you're focusing on the wrong issues here. No matter how many kids she has, or with who, the fathers are going to be ordered to pay support based on the same formula that everyone pays under. Even if mom made $6.6 billion a year, the CHILD has a right to support in the amount set out in state guidelines. But since children can't have bank accounts or pay bills, that money is paid to the custodial parent who is expected to use those funds to provide food, shelter, clean water, clothing, and the basics of life for the child(ren) under their care. If those tasks are being completed successfully, then no one gets to question or demand an accounting for the money.

To further illustrate child support, I'd like to borrow (with permission) a useful little analogy from a very wise man (OP just needs to reverse it since he's the paying parent).

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Treat your checking account like a swimming pool. Every month, you add 500 gallons of water from child support. You add another 1000 gallons from your job. Maybe you have a birthday and get another 50 gallons for gifts.

Now, you take 300 gallons out to pay your rent. You take 200 gallons out for food. Another 200 gallons for medical care.

How in the world would you be expected to know that the gallons you took out for food, clothing, etc was the same as the money that went in for child care? Obviously, you can't.

Bottom line is that as long as the child is fed and clothed and has shelter, ex has no say in how child support is spent.

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(And since NY is a straight-percentage state it wouldn't matter if Mom was earning zero or $5m/year)

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Quoting aardvarc

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Or the new Mercedes sport model looks nice. Seriously - you're focusing on the wrong issues here. No matter how many kids she has, or with who, the fathers are going to be ordered to pay support based on the same formula that everyone pays under. Even if mom made $6.6 billion a year, the CHILD has a right to support in the amount set out in state guidelines. But since children can't have bank accounts or pay bills, that money is paid to the custodial parent who is expected to use those funds to provide food, shelter, clean water, clothing, and the basics of life for the child(ren) under their care. If those tasks are being completed successfully, then no one gets to question or demand an accounting for the money.

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Thanks again for your insight and views. However, I just want to be clear. I have no reservations with supporting my child, it shouldn't seem like I'm the type of man who would have a problem with that based on what I've expressed this far. But in real-world terms, there's no way that my daughter would require 17% of her dad's income to assist in satisifying her (mom's) obligations to financially care for my kid. I should know, because I financially assisted in supporting ALL of her kids for many, many years. 17% of my income (combined with the other dad's 17%) allows for my ex to exist in a manner that is much higher than the manner in which I will exist. Not too fair from how I see it, especially considering all that I've done and contributed to her and ALL of her children's lives. Its funny that brownie points are only tangible when you're still in the relationship...and not after its been dissolved.

It really doesn't change anything, Dad.

(I know, that's not what you wanted to hear).

You have made yourself quite clear. You resent your ex having a lifestyle that exceeds yours; you believe that the income from her other daughter's father ought to be used to support your daughter so that you can pay less; and you do not want to have to pay a single cent more than YOU believe your daughter's support ought to come to.

Oh, I think we understand your position quite well.

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Quoting cbg

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You have made yourself quite clear. You resent your ex having a lifestyle that exceeds yours; you believe that the income from her other daughter's father ought to be used to support your daughter so that you can pay less; and you do not want to have to pay a single cent more than YOU believe your daughter's support ought to come to.

Oh, I think we understand your position quite well.

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As an aside, it almost makes me want to recommend to folk that before you choose to have a child with someone, make sure you live in a state where the shared-income model is used to calculate child support.

Not that I'm jaded and cynical ;)

Instant family of 4 kids at the age of 21, took responsibility for all of them as they were mine. Raised them well, all great kids and they are all benefits to our society. Helped show them the world.

Now I get the crappy apartment. LOLz. I'm sure my daughter will think highly of her mom as time progesses. They all (all the kids) know that they would not have had the childhood's that they had if it weren't for me. And they are all massively appreciative of it. I find great joy in that, but the bottom line is the basement floor apartment that I will be living in.

Oh, I see. That makes all the difference. Under those circumstances, your daughter doesn't need food, clothes, or a roof over her head at all, and you should easily be able to get your support reduced to zero. :wallbang:

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Quoting Dogmatique

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As an aside, it almost makes me want to recommend to folk that before you choose to have a child with someone, make sure you live in a state where the shared-income model is used to calculate child support.

Not that I'm jaded and cynical ;)

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I didn't "choose" to have a child with her. She chose me. Again, I was told that she couldn't get pregnant...I was a 20 year old dumb kid who was manipulated by an obsessed woman who wasn't happy with her husband. For what its worht, she has 9 year on me in age.

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Quoting cbg

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Oh, I see. That makes all the difference. Under those circumstances, your daughter doesn't need food, clothes, or a roof over her head at all, and you should easily be able to get your support reduced to zero. :wallbang:

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Stop reading between the lines. I'm not here to agrue. I never said I have any reservations with paying support. So please go from line to line, without selectively skipping lines that you chose not to read.

I have read every word. Your meaning comes through loud and clear.

Tell me, just exactly what percentage of your income IS your daughter worth? Because you still don't seem to comprehend that this is about HER, not your mother.

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Quoting johnny333

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I didn't "choose" to have a child with her. She chose me. Again, I was told that she couldn't get pregnant...I was a 20 year old dumb kid who was manipulated by an obsessed woman who wasn't happy with her husband. For what its worht, she has 9 year on me in age.

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Yes, you chose to have a child with her, Dad. You chose her by having sex with her - every single time you do that (unless the woman is post-menopausal or hysterectomied) you risk a pregnancy. You're also telling the court that you approve her to be the mother of your child.

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Stop reading between the lines. I'm not here to agrue. I never said I have any reservations with paying support. So please go from line to line, without selectively skipping lines that you chose not to read.

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Well, to be fair, it is coming across a little bit like that.

I'm being perfectly serious here, okay? Go offline for a bit. Have a cup of coffee, a buttered crumpet, a beer, whatever it is that you do. Then come back in a couple of hours and re-read your posts.

Purely out of interest, what do you think you should be paying percentage wise?

To all of you folks, my apologies. Not trying to come off like an ass. I really didn't think I was articulating the situation and my position in a manner that alludes to me not wanting to pay for my little girl. But apprently I am or you wouldn't be collectively saying that I am.

Its just that combined (me and the other Dad CS payment) annually of ~$40-45k will not be spent on those two girls. Sure some of it will, no question, but I know my ex, and much of it will benefit her...and not those kids.

I'm not going to continue to harp on this, I don't need to vent as I have enough friends and family in my corner who know the situation intimately. I was only here to get answers from some experienced people who are familar with situations like mine. I got what I was looking for, time to move one, and thanks again to all of you who chimed in with useful information.

And what you still don't grasp is that child support is meant to reimburse the custodial parent for what they have spent on the child. You really don't get it if you think that every penny of what you pay is supposed to be spent on the child.

Your meaning is perfectly clear. You're fine with paying child support as long as Mom does not benefit by even so much as a penny, and as long as you're the one in the big house and she's the one in the basement apartment.

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Quoting cbg

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And what you still don't grasp is that child support is meant to reimburse the custodial parent for what they have spent on the child. You really don't get it if you think that every penny of what you pay is supposed to be spent on the child.

Your meaning is perfectly clear. You're fine with paying child support as long as Mom does not benefit by even so much as a penny, and as long as you're the one in the big house and she's the one in the basement apartment.

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Wonder how many Coach purses Mom has?

;)