Criminal Charges for Overdraft

My question involves criminal law for the state of: Virginia

I recently made a purchase with my debit card in the amount of $2000 through amazon. I received the item in the mail subsequently I transferred $1700 from the account to another account. This resulted in an overdraft of $1700. I did not know why the payment didnt go through at the time. Is this a criminal offense? I'm not sure if I even have overdraft protection on this account since the account has been overdrawn for a month and I havent received any fees for it.

I have two accounts with this bank. In the other account I accidentally overdrew $300 from paypal which then took it from my bank in the form of an echeck. Is this the same as a bad check? So now I have two accounts with the same bank. One in the amount of -$1700 and another in the amount of -$300. .

My credit is not in good shape and I am unemployed. What can I do to prevent criminal charges being pressed as I do not have that kind of money right now? I can maybe pay off the $300 account but cannot cover the $1700.

I don't care too much about civil charges since I am already in massive debt. Please help.

What exactly are you asking about? You intentionally took $2000 of someone elses money, without the means to repay it. You will suffer whatever charges they choose to press.

Your story isn't credible. You cannot claim that you accidentally moved money between accounts and ended up with $1,700 in the wrong account, then claim that you don't have the $1,700. If your intentions were honest, surely you would have put the money back to cover your accidental overdraft.

Your narrative is muddy, so I'm not going to promise you that nothing you did is criminal. How about returning the item you bought from Amazon, and covering most of your bad debts with the refund?

what exactly is criminal about moving my own money in between accounts when it is there? I did not know that the $2000 dollars was not posted as usually debit card purchases are instant and if theyre not then they usually place a hold on the amount.

If anyone has any ideas in regards to the legal liabilities in this clase I would really like to know so I can decide how to move forward. But please spare me the civics lessons.

You chose to take the money out of an account such that the overdraft would occur, then you chose to spend the money rather than covering the overdraft. Bad choices we can't fix for you. Can we rule out that you won't be charged with a crime? Nope, we don't have a crystal ball here - the future is uncertain.

I believe the name of this forum is expertlaw. I came here to maybe get some legal advice not to be chastised by self-righteous blokes who have nothing better to do with their time. If anyone has any real experience with an issue like this Im all ears.

It's not out of the question that the bank would press charges. At the very least, federal wire fraud charges could apply. They will most likely just sue you. You will lose either way. First, if you already had bad credit and were unemployed, there is no way you should have been spending that kind of money. Second, how the hell did you not notice that the 2000 dollars wasn't taken out? Your balance would be significantly different. A properly maintained check register would have kept a second grader from doing something so stupid.Your story doesn't exactly stand the sniff test, if ya know what I mean. Given the facts as you presented them here, you either intentionally set out to commit a crime and got caught or you are a complete moron with regards to simple banking.


Best thing to do is try to set up a repayment plan with the bank.

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Quoting babagondeh

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I believe the name of this forum is expertlaw. I came here to maybe get some legal advice not to be chastised by self-righteous blokes who have nothing better to do with their time. If anyone has any real experience with an issue like this Im all ears.

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People who incur overdrafts by a method which can not be proven to have criminal intent, are generally assessed overdraft fees and nothing further is done, if they pay back the money and associated fees. People who do it with with criminal intent, are usually charged criminally as well as made to repay. Your actions appear to be criminal.

Thank you for your response. I never said that I did not notice the money wasn't taken out. I said that I did not why it was not taken out and I did not know if it ever would have been. I guess I was taking advantage of a clerical error. I thought amazon just forgot to charge me or something.

Can you please explain then how this could be wire fraud? And you say at the very LEAST this would be a FEDERAL offense??? isnt that a bit excessive.

I did some research and Im not sure if you know what wire fraud means. I dont think it has anything to do with wire transfers.

You haven't told us how this occurred - you just provide cockamamie stories and whine like a baby when told that your actions have consequences.

I doubt that a federal prosecutor is going to pick up a $2,000 case as wire fraud (potentially two counts), but the wire fraud statute is very broad. (18 USC Sec. 1343).

Tell us what actually happened. Surely you have figured out by now what you did with the missing $2,000.

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Quoting free9man

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At the very least, federal wire fraud charges could apply. They will most likely just sue you. You will lose either way.

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Before we over-react...babagondeh - go find your small print with your bank contracts and see what they say about overdrafts in relation to the types of accounts that you hold.

That would seem like the first step...

You say this is a month old and you haven't heard a word from the bank or received any charges? (charges as in monetary charges, from the bank) Read your contracts bro.

anyone who claims this is wire fraud can not also claim to knowitall. Just shows a complete lack of knowledge.

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I guess I was taking advantage of a clerical error.

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Oh, so you were aware the money had not been deducted and removed the money with that knowledge.

Guess what?

Your fault and that makes criminal charges a lot more likely.

So in addition to being a whining baby who blames everybody else for the fact that your bad choices may get you into legal trouble, and being a jerk toward the people who are helping you for free out of the goodness of our hearts, you can't read.

You're a total waste of time.

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Quoting Mr. Knowitall

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So in addition to being a whining baby who blames everybody else for the fact that your bad choices may get you into legal trouble, and being a jerk toward the people who are helping you for free out of the goodness of our hearts, you can't read.

You're a total waste of time.

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I can't see where this guy has been a "whining baby".

You know, this comes up a lot at this site. People come looking for 'legal advice' and end up getting arrogrance, abuse, and morally attacked from egotistical people who....I don't know, maybe need some sort of social counseling if this is your little haven where you can act big.

There need to be some people who have the ability to respond to questions without being righteous. And who can cope when someone disagrees with them or dares to challenge them.

babagondeh - did you check out your contracts yet regarding overdrafts?


Do you guys realize how often bank accounts are overdrawn?....'wire fraud'...'feds'...'criminal charges'...f***s sake...
Banks have policies in place regarding these things. You don't need to be jumping to dramatic conclusions. (Though I guess that's why you don't get paid for your advice)

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Quoting aest

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I can't see where this guy has been a "whining baby".

You know, this comes up a lot at this site. People come looking for 'legal advice' and end up getting arrogrance, abuse, and morally attacked from egotistical people who....I don't know, maybe need some sort of social counseling if this is your little haven where you can act big.

There need to be some people who have the ability to respond to questions without being righteous. And who can cope when someone disagrees with them or dares to challenge them.

babagondeh - did you check out your contracts yet regarding overdrafts?


Do you guys realize how often bank accounts are overdrawn?....'wire fraud'...'feds'...'criminal charges'...f***s sake...
Banks have policies in place regarding these things. You don't need to be jumping to dramatic conclusions. (Though I guess that's why you don't get paid for your advice)

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really? given the statements of the OP, there could be criminal charges. He stated he was aware the $2k had not been deducted from his account but he knows it was supposed to be. That means he did not have, and knowingly did not have, that $2k available to him. He knew that when you made the $1700 transfer. In my book that is a criminal act. To prove it wasn't, he needed to settle his accounts. He has, apparently to date, refused to do so. That shows intent to defraud as well as the refusing to remedy the situation pretty much cements the fact it was intentional fraud.

as suggested previously, he can attempt to return the $1700 item and pay the delinquent account but apparently what he purchased is too important to him and has, so far, refused to do so.

do you realize what it means to intentionally and knowingly overdraw an account? That shows intent to defraud. That makes it criminal.

Question A really is 'what does the contract say in regards to overdrafts?".

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Quoting jk

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He knew that when you made the $1700 transfer.

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Hey! I have an alibi for that night.

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Quoting aest

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Question A really is 'what does the contract say in regards to overdrafts?".



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OP says he has no idea. I will stay with he does not have overdraft protection but even if he did, since he has no money in the bank at this time, I am quite sure any overdraft protection would not be applicable. OD protection works by taking money out of one account to pay another or by, temporarily, having the bank honor the charge with the intent the account holder will make good on the debit. OP admits to not being able to so I cannot imagine a bank in the world that would allow the negative balance to continue without addressing it.

so, then we get into: was it intentional or not. OP states it was. OP admits he knew he did not have the means to cover the debit.

So, you tell me: is an intentional act to cause the bank to pay his $2k debt criminal or not?

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Quoting jk

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OP says he has no idea.

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OP needs to figure it out. Then you can stop making assumptions.

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OP admits to not being able to so I cannot imagine a bank in the world that would allow the negative balance to continue without addressing it.

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And yet here he is a month later...

(that's the bit that interests me)

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So, you tell me: is an intentional act to cause the bank to pay his $2k debt criminal or not?

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What proof does the bank currently hold? What does the bank know? Some guy overdrew his accounts. (to the tune of $2k. oh my gosh, shock horror, the banking world is going to collapse if we don't involve the feds....this is not why we have a recession...)

Oh, and babagondeh, you must have some money sitting around somewhere - I'd start putting it in the bank.

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aest;565637]OP needs to figure it out. Then you can stop making assumptions.

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It doesn't really matter if he has OD protection or not unless he has some very unique version of OD protection. The only thing that would save his butt here is if he had OP protection that automatically caused the OD to become a loan. Possible but unusual. It is the OP's failure in not knowing his situation, not mine.

OP's original post was last Wednesday. Since he is unemployed, he has had plenty of time to investigate. Since he has not posted here whether he has OD protection or not, I can only assume he has no intention of providing that info.

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And yet here he is a month later...

(that's the bit that interests me)

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most times banks do not rush down to the police and seek charges. They attempt to allow the customer to prove their intent and correct the situation. Maybe he hasn't heard anything because the DA is working on getting an arrest warrant.:eek:

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What proof does the bank currently hold? What does the bank know? Some guy overdrew his accounts.

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and has refused to cure the deficit.

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Quoting jk

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It doesn't really matter if he has OD protection or not unless he has some very unique version of OD protection. The only thing that would save his butt here is if he had OP protection that automatically caused the OD to become a loan. Possible but unusual. It is the OP's failure in not knowing his situation, not mine.

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I would argue that it matters a great deal whether he has OD protection or not...

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most times banks do not rush down to the police and seek charges. They attempt to allow the customer to prove their intent and correct the situation. Maybe he hasn't heard anything because the DA is working on getting an arrest warrant.:eek:

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Holy smoke Batman!

Well, the first two sentences sound like something I would say.
But my third sentence would be - what's with this bank which appears to have failures in communication? Why have they not said anything throughout this month? babagoneh's first post was on the 26th October, so if you think about it, a month's worth of banking procedures have essentially been completed throughout the time that the accounts have been in the negative - I'm struck by the silence...which makes me wonder. Man, I might even try to find out what awesome bank this is and sign up!
(I realize that sounds like I didn't read your third sentence - really, you really think they ran to the DA and they're sorting out an arrest warrant over $2000 when the bank has not said a word to the client?)

babagoneh...you wouldn't happen to have moved have you? (that would be the simplest answer actually...)

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and has refused to cure the deficit.

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Oh. That's strange. I must have missed the part where he 'refused'.

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Quoting aest

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Oh. That's strange. I must have missed the part where he 'refused'.

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OP is aware of the deficit. OP has not remedied the problem ergo OP has refused to fix the problem.

One doesn't have to say "no" in order to refuse something. Failing to fix something when aware of the problem is also a refusal although tacit.

and do you really believe the OP that he has had NO communication with the bank? How do you think he is aware of the problem?

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I would argue that it matters a great deal whether he has OD protection or not...

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sure it would, if it was of a type that would allow the person to never pay for the overdraft, which is the position the OP is in. When you find a bank that does that for its customers, let me know. I want to open an account at that bank. It will be like the joke where the guy asks the Genie for the money for any purchase he makes to magically be in his pocket when he reaches into his pocket. Magic money overdraft protection. I love it.

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Quoting jk

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OP is aware of the deficit. OP has not remedied the problem ergo OP has refused to fix the problem.

One doesn't have to say "no" in order to refuse something. Failing to fix something when aware of the problem is also a refusal although tacit.

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I think you would struggle with your definition of 'refuse' in a court of law.

I'm pretty sure refusing would sound more like this:

Bank: I say I say good Sir, couldn't help but notice you've used a bit more money than you actually had. You wouldn't mind handing that back would you? Jolly good.
Babagondeh: No. You can't have it. It's my money.
Bank: Come now good Sir. Give us our money back or we'll give you what for!
Babagondeh: No! You're not having my money. You give me what for!
Bank: That's it! We're going straight to the feds. Straight to the feds! We'll let you know what they said after they stop laughing. Columbian drug cartel wire fraud - huh! What a waste of time. What the feds really need is a $2000 Amazon case!
Babagondeh: Fed schmed. I don't care. You're still not getting my money.

Later in the Feds office:
Detective Clouseau: AMAZON! I knew the Brazilians were involved!

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How do you think he is aware of the problem?

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I have this wild idea that he might use internet banking...

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It will be like the joke where the guy asks the Genie for the money for any purchase he makes to magically be in his pocket when he reaches into his pocket. Magic money overdraft protection. I love it.

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Wow. You're not very good at telling jokes...

Ok so a few days ago I got a few letters from the bank about the overdrafts. For the $300 overdraft theyre still charging me $35 for every day that it is outstanding. For the $1700 they have not even charged me with a single overdraft fee. They just said that the amount is delinquent andthey would like to "keep my business" "so please pay us back" or else they might have to report me to Chex Systems and I wont be able to open a bank account for the next 7 years. So I called them and told them I would like to pay for the $300 balance not including the overdrafts. They said no I have to pay for overdrafts I was like I cant afford it right now blah blah blah... and they were like we can take out one or two but it was still like $100 in overdraft charges which is essentially food out of my mouth. So I told them I'd call back with a decision. But I dont think I'll be able to do it right now. They can press civil charges and garnish my wages when I eventually have wages but right now I need the money.

I dunno if you can say I was trying to defraud the bank. I knew I had bought something but it is also the bank/merchants responsibility to charge me or place hold on the amount of what I buy in a reasonable time. I believe it was a little less than a week before the charges were applied. On an online transaction that is unheard of. Its usually instant. So I dunno. Will I go to jail for this?

I dont have access to a contract. If you must know it was a BofA account. One student and the $1700 one was a reg checking.

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Quoting babagondeh

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I knew I had bought something but it is also the bank/merchants responsibility to charge me or place hold on the amount of what I buy in a reasonable time. I believe it was a little less than a week before the charges were applied. On an online transaction that is unheard of. Its usually instant.

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Absolutely, positively, 100% wrong. They can charge you a month after the transaction if they want to although I doubt any would as it would screw up their books. It is your responsibility to ensure the funds are available. If the merchant does not charge you, you should a. contact them to see what is going on and b. leave the money in there for far more than a week. Sounds like you thought you got a freebie by mistake and yanked the funds in case they caught it. You gambled and lost, not it's time to pay the house.

It sounds like the bank is still trying to be civil about this. I recommend you work with them. Try offering the $300 now and payments on the OD fee balance.

The question is will the sheriff come knocking on the door for this. Please base your answers on actual criminal law or previous cases not just opinion. thank you.

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Quoting free9man

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It sounds like the bank is still trying to be civil about this. I recommend you work with them. Try offering the $300 now and payments on the OD fee balance.

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I did that already but I can't afford all the extra charges. I can only afford the principle amount. And thats what i told them.

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Quoting babagondeh

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The question is will the sheriff come knocking on the door for this. Please base your answers on actual criminal law or previous cases not just opinion. thank you.

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That was answered a long time ago.

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Quoting Mr. Knowitall

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You chose to take the money out of an account such that the overdraft would occur, then you chose to spend the money rather than covering the overdraft. Bad choices we can't fix for you. Can we rule out that you won't be charged with a crime? Nope, we don't have a crystal ball here - the future is uncertain.

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You are now saying that the bank has offered some form of civil approach, where you pay back the money you took. If you do that - pay back the money you took in a manner satisfactory to the bank - I would expect that to be the end of the matter. If you choose not to do so, you may face additional consequences due to your choices.

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Quoting aest

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I would argue that it matters a great deal whether he has OD protection or not...

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You do understand, do you not that, despite some similarities, overdraft protection is not intended to be used as a line of credit? (Even if we assume that there was overdraft protection on the account, or that it is sufficient to cover the amounts at issue.)

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Quoting aest

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(I realize that sounds like I didn't read your third sentence - really, you really think they ran to the DA and they're sorting out an arrest warrant over $2000 when the bank has not said a word to the client?)

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It's important to note two things:

First, babagoneh has chosen to withhold a lot of information from us. Given that you specifically suggest that the bank did not communicate on the issue, as it turns out, there was clear communication from the bank on the $300 overdraft and a very polite request that babagoneh repay the $1,700. He is here not because the bank doesn't want the money back, but because he doesn't want to pay overdraft fees and wants somebody to reassure him that he won't be arrested if the bank doesn't see him as cooperating in the return of its money.

Also, if you believe the bank has some sort of duty to approach the customer and discuss anything before reporting an incident such as this to the police, you are wrong. There is no such obligation. Here, contrary to your assumption, the bank did approach babagoneh but there's no reason they could not have looked at the transactions (transactions babagoneh has chosen not to explain to us, despite repeated requests that he do so), determine that they likely involved criminal intent and go straight to the police.

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Quoting aest

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Oh. That's strange. I must have missed the part where he 'refused'.

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Are you clear on things now? The bank has expressly asked for its money back, babagondeh has not returned it. I'm not sure that there's much of a point to semantic games over whether babagondeh's failure to return the money is a refusal to return it or if it should be regarded as something other than a refusal because he spent the bank's money on other things and no longer has the money to return.

First, there is the obligatory this is a public forum. You do not get to dictate who responds to you or how.

Next, you were asserting that an on-line merchant should bill you immediately and that failure to do so means they won't. That implies you believe a reasonable person, if not billed immediately, would think it's alright to yank the money out. I was simply rebutting that because it is wrong. If a merchant hasn't billed you in a month, you should leave the money available and contact them about it. If they ignore you, you can move the money if you want but should be prepared to have to pay the bill when presented. At the end, you stated it was "a little less than a week before the charges were applied" which means you yanked the funds before a week had even passed. That is just moronic on a scale unimaginable to not even give them a week. It is not unreasonable for a merchant to batch process charges on a weekly basis, many do. That means you were trying to get over. If you made your purchase on a weekend, it may not have shown for several days thus being a little less than a week before the charges were applied. I have purchased from Amazon on the weekend and had it not post until Tues or Weds.

Will the sheriff come a'knockin? To arrest you? Probably not. The merchant was made whole and the bank can seek civil remedies against you. If the bank gets frustrated, can find the right charge and a willing prosecutor...it might happen. They will almost certainly come a'knockin' to serve you for the lawsuit.

If you can't afford it, pay them what you can. At that point they will likely report you to CHEX and either sue you or turn you over to a CA. That may take a while cause they'll let the OD fees keep piling up so the suit is worth it.

Ok I guess it is best is I gy to set up a payment plan. Has . Thanks everyone. Has anyone been in a similar situation? If so I would like to hear how it played out

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Ok so a few days ago I got a few letters from the bank about the overdrafts

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.wow, look at that aest. I guess I must be psychic.

As you can also see, he has refused to pay the debt to date.

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I was like I cant afford it right now blah blah blah

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I dunno if you can say I was trying to defraud the bank. I knew I had bought something but it is also the bank/merchants responsibility to charge me or place hold on the amount of what I buy in a reasonable time.

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No, it isn't the banks responsibility to put a hold on anything. It is your responsibility to keep track of how much money you have in the bank and not spend more than that.

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I believe it was a little less than a week before the charges were applied. On an online transaction that is unheard of. Its usually instant. So I dunno. Will I go to jail for this?

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Yes, in today's world banking is almost instantaneous but that does not have anything to do with you spending money you know you didn't have.

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I dont have access to a contract.

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You have a computer and internet access. They may have it online.

thanx jk for beating a dead horse. I hope you could satisfy your seemingly insatiable need to be right.