IMO, and in lieu of (or in addition to) simply checking the TBD box on the bottom portion of the courtesy notice, a proper "mailed in" TBD request is made by printing a TR-205 form from the court's website, typing in the court's address, defendant's name, citation number and submitting it to the court along with a check for the bail amount as shown on the courtesy notice... That throws it in the clerk's face that THIS IS WHAT I WANT.
The clerk will then enter the due date get the appropriate forms to the officer... enter the case in the system...
All of which is an exercise in futility and a waste of the court's time in this case but who am I to judge! I'll leave that for the actual judge!!!
Speeding in a Senior Zone
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11-17-2011, 04:00 PMThat GuyRe: Speeding in a Senior Zone
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11-17-2011, 07:07 PMquirkyquarkRe: Speeding in a Senior Zone
^^^ agreed! Don't type out your request on the fillable form. Print it out as is and then write your request with a thick black marker!!
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11-18-2011, 10:29 PMLaw Abiding CitizenRe: Speeding in a Senior Zone
Oh, okay. Thanks. Yeah, the court is not too far away.
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01-27-2012, 05:41 PMLaw Abiding CitizenRe: Speeding in a Senior Zone UPDATE
Well, a lot has transpired since I last wrote. I will try to include only the cogent points. Much to That Guy's glee the response to my Trial by Written Declaration came back GUILTY! :cool:
In all the paperwork I got in the mail there was no explanation for the verdict and indeed no hint that the presiding judge even read my defense. There was also no inclusion of what the citing officer had to say about it. This was as I feared, that the judge would glance at the case and say, "There's no defense for 'speeding in a senior zone,' so obviously this person is guilty and there is no reason for me to read what they included."
After receiving the verdict I wrote to the city and the city manager and the chief of police at the city of Irvine. A lieutenant was the one who responded and from what he wrote at least he seemed reasonable and evidenced some willingness to listen to a lowly citizen (kid yourself not, that is what we are in this country now). I explained the situation to him and I think he at first thought that I was saying the posted speed limit signs were non-standard and therefore unenforceable. He actually said:
Okay, nice Lieutenant (and he was at least a good bit better than the citing officer), thank you for agreeing with me that the senior zone signs there are unenforceable. I never claimed that the speed signs were non-standard but at this time they ARE unenforceable due to a Traffic & Engineering Survey having not been done there in well over five years, in fact, it's probably been over twice that long.Quote:
The SENIOR-related signs, both symbol and text, fall under the category of “warning” signs, which are used to convey a message and/or advisory information, but are not enforceable. Technically, unless there is a specific mandate to combine the two types of signs, warning signs have no bearing on whether or not a regulatory sign is enforceable. The enforceable sign, i.e., “regulatory” sign, is the posted speed signs. All speed limit signs along Harvard comply with MUTCD standards.
I don't know what a second judge might say but at least I have it straight from a high-ranking officer of the city that the senior zone signs currently on that stretch of road are unenforceable. It's also a travesty that a county judge wouldn't simply agree with me saying the same thing. I do know that That Guy's sentiment tends to be, "Hang 'em high!" which sentiment he is welcome to. -
01-27-2012, 11:24 PMThat GuyRe: Speeding in a Senior Zone UPDATEWhat makes you think I care... Or that it has any effect on me whether you are found guilty or not?Quote:
Quoting Law Abiding Citizen
I'm not sure what yoou mean by "all the paperwork", the "TR-215 Form - Decision and Notice of Decision" consists of two pages. And an explanation of the verdict isn't ever provided!Quote:
Quoting Law Abiding Citizen
There is no hint he didn't... I guess the glass is always half empty for you!Quote:
Quoting Law Abiding Citizen
The officer's declaration or any submitted evidence isn't provided as part of the notice of decision. If you're interested in finding out what the officer submitted, visit your friendly court clerk and request a copy.Quote:
Quoting Law Abiding Citizen
3 quarters empty?Quote:
Quoting Law Abiding Citizen
FLASHBACK! LOLQuote:
Quoting Law Abiding Citizen
You wrote to them telling them what? better yet, asking for whatexactly?
I don't think his explanation is 100% accurate, however, he does make a valid point and one which I tried to put across the entire time. There is a "regulatory" (white sign with black lettering) 25mph speed limit sign. And "regulatory" means you are required to abide by its direction or instruction.Quote:
Quoting Law Abiding Citizen
Now, for a person who is aware of how a SENIOR zone is justified, can do one of two things: (1) He/she can comply with the direction of that sign, drive at or near the 25mph limit and be on his way; or , (2) he can drive at whatever speed he/she chooses, risk getting cited, hope that there is no valid justification for the 25mph speed limit, at which point in time he can argue "speed trap", hope that he is found not guilty, otherwise, he'd have to go through the appeals process and hope and pray that he can convince the appellate that the case should be dismissed.
And no, I am not referring to you specifically in either scenario... Simply because the underlined qualifier does not apply to you!
I think you completely misunderstood the lieutenant's reply.Quote:
Quoting Law Abiding Citizen
I'm not sure that is going to do much as far as your guilt or innocence! But you're free to hang your hopes on that if you want!Quote:
Quoting Law Abiding Citizen
Yet another FLASHBACK!!!! wow!!!Quote:
Quoting Law Abiding Citizen
Again, please believe me: I don't care one way or the other!Quote:
Quoting Law Abiding Citizen
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01-27-2012, 11:54 PMLaw Abiding CitizenRe: Speeding in a Senior Zone UPDATE
Excellent. So you don't care but you still seem to have a thing that comes across to people as, "If you got a ticket you sure as heck deserved it and if you use some loophole to get out of it then the sure hand of karma will come back and get you sometime." But whatever. We can deal with the facts and I'll let you say that you don't come across to people the way you actually do.
The facts here are that a lieutenant at the city's police department told me in plain language that the senior signs there are NOT enforceable. Which overrules (in a world that's based on logic) his underling traffic officer saying that it was a senior zone speed violation. In other words SENIOR ZONE should never be entering into this argument, as QuirkyQuark said in his second post in this thread. So it reverts to a normal speed "violation." And you seem to not be taking into account that speed trap laws DO apply here since it's been around a decade that they've done a Traffic & Engineering Survey. Somehow that's not quite clear-cut enough for you. We keep finding out that QuirkyQuark's interpretation was exactly right and that there's nothing else to argue.
Maybe. You can read between the lines of what I say and hope your interpretation is correct, just like I do with what you have to say. And I'm open to being wrong about you and your, "Sure, there's a sliver of a chance that any of you might be innocent, but really now, we all know deep down inside that you're guilty" attitude. Very open to being wrong about that.Quote:
I guess the glass is always half empty for you!
You are free to clarify what you think he meant. I'm still sticking with where he plainly said, "The SENIOR-related signs, both symbol and text, fall under the category of 'warning' signs, which are used to convey a message and/or advisory information, but are not enforceable." But in the world of ThatGuy I'm supposed to interpret "not enforceable" as "enforceable."Quote:
I think you completely misunderstood the lieutenant's reply.
I told them they have improper signage up yet are expecting people to behave as though the proper signage was there. They responded that they might change the sign when they felt like it and, "So what if it says 'Area' instead of 'Facility?'" But it's still non-standard and legally nonbinding. The code wouldn't say anything about "standard" signs if it didn't think non-standard signs could exist. It would just say, "Use any sign you want that shows senior citizens live nearby." If the citing officer can cite on what he thinks is a technicality then I can certainly defend myself with actual technicalities. Oh, but in your rule book I can't think that I have a right to use loopholes to defend myself. Those are just for government to use against citizens.Quote:
You wrote to them telling them what? Better yet, asking for what exactly?
That's partly right. There's other facts that come into play here.Quote:
There is a "regulatory" (white sign with black lettering) 25mph speed limit sign. And "regulatory" means you are required to abide by its direction or instruction.
Keep your commentary coming... -
01-28-2012, 01:06 AMquirkyquarkRe: Speeding in a Senior Zone UPDATENo explanation for the verdict is required. If you want what the citing officer said (AND YOU DEFINITELY DO--ASAP), go to the court and request a copy of the officer's TBD (it's called the TR-235 form). May be $0.50/page, but well worth it since it pretty much will be his testimony in court.Quote:
Quoting Law Abiding Citizen
TBD reviews can be rubberstamped (i.e. if officer submits his side you're toast no matter what), cursory, or very thorough, depending on the judge, workload, etc. Both personally and in my time on the forum, I've seen all kinds. It's just the way it is.
Yes, higher-ranking (i.e. "managerial" officers, including sgts, lts and capts) officers are usually very courteous, law-abiding and by-the-book. Anytime you have a beef with police procedure, it's best to direct the letter to the commanding officer of that station (call to get the name), or of that "traffic division" (in larger cities).Quote:
Quoting A Nice Lt.
He's right that the signs in and of itself mean nothing, per the usual rules as TG said (white is regulatory, yellow is warning only).
- BUT VC 22352 explicitly says "Twenty-file miles per hour...posted with a standard "SENIOR" warning sign." Therefore, as we assumed initially, considering 22352 in and of itself, just the MUTCD-specified (SW50) warning sign is enough to enforce a prima facie 25 mph limit, with no white "25" sign required.
- MUTCD 2012 says (same as before):
Quote:
Quoting MUTCD 2012, sec 2C, p. 290
- As discussed before, "Guidance" is strongly recommended; but if you choose to do what the Guidance says, you must follow the Option below it. Effectively, unless there is written documentation of engineering studies or judgment that a "SENIOR" warning sign is enough by itself, the MUTCD gives you a de facto mandate that it be combined with a speed limit sign. (as that historical photo as well as the one or two other examples we dug up showed).
- Now comes the most important part: if the VC doesn't explicitly say a sign of the prima facie limit is necessary, why does the MUTCD bother with it? The reason is VERY SIMPLE and should make it obvious to ANY judge why sticking to the letter of VC 22352 is absurd. All a licensed driver is required to be familiar with is the DMV Driver's Handbook. If you check the latest, you will find ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ON SENIOR ZONES (quite a bit on school zones, of course). So all a solitary "senior zone" warning would tell the average driver is: drive cautiously, keep your eyes peeled for any jaywalkers. Nothing about the speed limit. No enforceability, as the lt. indicated.
- Hence, the MUTCD "mandate" is clearly the common sense option, which other jurisdictions have followed but this city has not.
- If you're going to ignore that and stick to VC 22352, well, this isn't the "standard" sign so it's inapplicable and this isn't a "senior zone".
- And even if you claim that the defective sign STILL makes this a senior zone with a 25 p.f. limit, legislative history clearly shows (see DOT specs of SW50 sign design) that an E&TS is still required. There is none.
So, by any interpretation of "senior zone", this is a speed trap.
That is the sort of argument you should have made in your TBD, but who knows, you'd probably still have lost. But it's what you need to make at trial, with appropriate objections to preserve the issue for trial.
In any case, the lieutenant's statement could be VERY helpful to you (a prosecutor could object to it, but one won't be present, so it doesn't matter). If not already, you NEED to get it in writing from him, on official letterhead, with an ink signature. Then we'll have you make a motion for judicial notice a few days before trial, and have the relevant parts of the MUTCD, any legislative history as well as the Lt.'s letter admitted as official records.
Technically, the lt. is opining on the law, which a prosecutor would object to. BUT practically, his word is law in that jurisdiction. I have another suggestion: write a polite letter to the lt. (or the citing officer's superior), citing this fact and asking them to request the court to dismiss the citation in the interests of justice, or at least amend it to a regular 22350. I have a **template** for this, so PM me and be sure to ask if you're going this route. Worst case, they refuse, and you're no worse off.Quote:
Quoting Law Abiding Citizen
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01-28-2012, 09:51 AMLaw Abiding CitizenRe: Speeding in a Senior Zone UPDATE
Thank you again to Quirky Quark and to That Guy for responding. I don't want to just hear things that are for "my side." I want to be able to suss the whole thing out with every pertinent fact possible until there is only one remaining logical answer.
The lt. also said that he confirmed this view I believe with the Public Works people at the City, if that means anything. It might not.Quote:
Technically, the lt. is opining on the law, which a prosecutor would object to.
I guess I should obtain that even though I already have an e-mail? If I approach him for this will he get more defensive and think I am using a little subterfuge to paint him into a corner?Quote:
In any case, the lieutenant's statement could be VERY helpful to you (a prosecutor could object to it, but one won't be present, so it doesn't matter). If not already, you NEED to get it in writing from him, on official letterhead, with an ink signature.
That's what my first e-mail to the Irvine PD tried to do. But now that I have been in touch with a specific lieutenant there maybe I can use the template you mention. I should add here that when I asked in my own informal, yet still polite, way for them to dismiss it the lt. wrote back and said, "It's out of our hands now. You just have to see what you can do with a county judge at this point."Quote:
I have another suggestion: write a polite letter to the lt. (or the citing officer's superior), citing this fact and asking them to request the court to dismiss the citation in the interests of justice, or at least amend it to a regular 22350.
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01-28-2012, 10:54 AMdavidmcbeth3Re: Speeding in a Senior Zone UPDATEHeck, its a de novo trial ... just goes to show the mountain one has to climb to argue law in a court .. so the OP should be ready to argue his points in courtQuote:
Quoting Law Abiding Citizen
Looking at just the sign itself, it is a warning sign (not regulatory sign) but is a warning required for the regulatory signs to be regulatory? Like school zones ... are warning signs mandatory for the mandatory speed limit signs to have the intended effect? I would not think so, but its something to consider as I my assumption may be incorrect. -
01-28-2012, 04:58 PMquirkyquarkRe: Speeding in a Senior Zone UPDATEYou already have the email, so it can't hurt to ask. Make it part of the request to dismiss in the interests of justice. Please PM me your email address.Quote:
Quoting Law Abiding Citizen
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03-21-2012, 06:58 PMLaw Abiding CitizenRe: Speeding in a Senior Zone UPDATE
Going to the court tomorrow. I already know I don't have a lot of hope in a state where you are considered guilty period. If I show up in person is a judge more likely to actually listen? Or do they still declare guilty regardless of the facts?
You are correct that there is nothing about senior zones in here: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/spee...tm#speedlimits
And I'm hoping to hear ANYTHING from ThatGuy that will be relevant. As I said before, I'm not just looking for stuff that supports "my side." -
03-22-2012, 09:45 AMLaw Abiding CitizenRe: Speeding in a Senior Zone UPDATE
Got a rather odd response today from the police lieutenant when I asked him if he could provide a written statement backing up his prior e-mailed statement that the senior zone signs are non-regulatory and not enforceable. Here is part of it:
Of course, that's not even what I was asking him for. The rest of the e-mail to be posted later...Quote:
The 25MPH zone is enforceable in the senior area and I cannot provide you with a statement contradicting such.