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Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beaten

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  • 10-25-2011, 01:24 PM
    quirkyquark
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    Quote:

    Quoting MIVGTI
    View Post
    but I did read somewhere that you do not need to say anything under "STATEMENT OF FACTS" on the request other than, "I stand by my plea of not guilty." Does this sound right?

    That's possible, and certainly recommended in a lot of TBD situations. NOT for yours though... The idea behind saying just that is primarily to (a) not say anything self-incriminating (like "maybe I was going 70 in a 65 but certainly not 80!") and (b) get a copy of the cop's declaration after losing the TBD so you can find out what his testimony in court is going to be. Knowing (b) helps you prepare your defense, including objections to make and questions to ask the officer in cross-examination.

    In your case, (a) doesn't come into play because it's not like you're going to say "I ran the light but here's my excuse...", and (b) isn't relevant since it's an RLC ticket. Why let go of the "free chance" a TBD gives you, in addition to the invaluable opportunity to make sure your arguments go "on the record" (very important if you decide to appeal)? There's also the slight chance that if the judge sees your well-written TBD, he/she may decide it's not worth having the appellate department decide in your favor and thereby put the majority of RLC tickets at risk, and may just dismiss your TBD.
  • 10-25-2011, 04:22 PM
    MIVGTI
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    Well explained, so then I will send the request as the real thing, can I ask what edits you propose?
  • 10-25-2011, 04:34 PM
    quirkyquark
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    Quote:

    Quoting MIVGTI
    View Post
    Well explained, so then I will send the request as the real thing, can I ask what edits you propose?

    It will need some "legalese" and citations and will take me a bit of time. I won't be able to get to it until the weekend (shouldn't be a problem if you're sending in the letter to request the TBD form and bail first).

    ALSO, you should send in an informal discovery request to the DA, cc'd to the police dept for the evidence (certifications of the system, etc.). You MAY want to wait until you have those before submitting TBD.

    Edit: I understand you just want to get the ball moving asap. If you're not far from the courthouse, you can submit the letter/bail in person -- they may give you the form right then and there, or get it to you by mail in less than a week (Ventura's small, no long delays like LA I presume).
  • 10-25-2011, 04:51 PM
    That Guy
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    Quote:

    Quoting flyingron
    View Post
    (a) is prefectly valid. It says 'except as provided by (b)' you must stop and wait. Since you (b) wasn't followed (stop and yield), you are in violation of (a).

    Pretty much the same thing I said Ron. :D Except my comment was made BEFORE the video was posted. Yours was AFTER...

    Quote:

    Quoting quirkyquark
    View Post
    I don't know about Ventura County, but in LA directly submitting your declaration with the bail has resulted in BIG problems for people (I know of three cases on this forum). You're supposed to send bail with an "informal" request for trial by written declaration (TBD). The clerk will then mail both you and the officer the forms to be submitted within 25 days. That form is what you fill out and send in.

    I seem to have gotten a different impression regarding the most recent TBD request problem(s). That being people are submitting a "letter" requesting a TBD, along with check covering the bail amount... Clerk opens up the envelope sees a letter, (my guess -> thinking its a guilty plea along with fine payment<-) set the letter aside, grabs the check applies the payment towards the fine, it comes up as "bail fofeiture, case is closed and the defendant is still waiting for forms.

    What they did is not relevant, in fact, it is probably wrong and that's why their cases got screwed up!

    Therefore, I would suggest that the request for a TBD be made on a TBD form TR-205, which is exactly what the California Rules of Court say you MUST do:

    Rule 4.210
    (b) Procedure
    (3) Election
    The defendant must file a Request for Trial by Written Declaration (form TR-205) with the clerk by the appearance date indicated on the Notice to Appear or the extended due date as provided in (2). The Request for Trial by Written Declaration (form TR-205) must be filed in addition to the defendant’s written request for a trial by written declaration, unless the defendant’s request was made on the election form.


    Once that form is received (along with the bail amount), the clerk (deposits the bail) extends the due date by 25 days, stamps the form with the due date, mails it back to the defendant, issues form TR-235 stamped with the due date, and mails it out to the officer along with form TR210.

    This procedure as prescribed in the CALIFORNIA rules of court, should apply in any court in the state UNLESS local court rules suggest otherwise.
  • 10-25-2011, 04:56 PM
    quirkyquark
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    ^^^ Agree, it's a dilemma. I read the rules to have two different ways though:

    Quote:

    Quoting Calif. Rules of Court, 4.210
    (2)Extending due date

    If the clerk receives the defendant's written request for a trial by written declaration by the appearance date indicated on the Notice to Appear, the clerk must, within 15 calendar days after receiving the defendant's written request, extend the appearance date 25 calendar days and must give or mail notice to the defendant of the extended due date on the Request for Trial by Written Declaration (form TR-205) with a copy of the Instructions to Defendant (form TR-200) and any other required forms.

    (3)Election

    The defendant must file a Request for Trial by Written Declaration (form TR-205) with the clerk by the appearance date indicated on the Notice to Appear or the extended due date as provided in (2). The Request for Trial by Written Declaration (form TR-205) must be filed in addition to the defendant's written request for a trial by written declaration, unless the defendant's request was made on the election form.

    (3) Election gives you the option of filing TR-205 by the appearance date, OR the extended date in (2). You only get an extended date if you submit a "written request for a trial by written declaration", which the language ("in addition to") in (3) clarifies is DIFFERENT from the TR-205 form. I take it to mean an "informal" written request. If you submit such a request, you should receive the form and the instructions; you then fill out and submit the form. "Election form" (as bolded) is confusing, though...

    The LA County courtesy notices specifically have a box in the tear-off portion you send back that says (IIRC) "I request a trial by declaration", so technically no other request or letter is necessary.

    If possible, please take care of this in person since you're probably close by.
  • 10-25-2011, 05:16 PM
    MIVGTI
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    Got it, will pick up request tomorrow. I sent the bail out today by itself by mail to ensure it got there in time. Thanks again guys, much appreciated.
  • 10-25-2011, 05:55 PM
    That Guy
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    I am usually of the belief that a TBD should include some sort of statement. One can be cautious so as not to err and admit guilt or incriminate him/herself. TBD is in the court file and therefore can be easily seen by the judge and I simply think it gives the wrong impression to request a Trial by WRITTEN DECLARATION and utilize the court's time in adjudicating a TBD when in fact, all you have to DECLARE in WRITING and in your defense is : "I plead not guilty"...

    At any rate, that is not my point... I mainly wanted to comment onthe undelined portion below...

    Quote:

    Quoting quirkyquark
    View Post
    In your case, (a) doesn't come into play because it's not like you're going to say "I ran the light but here's my excuse...", and (b) isn't relevant since it's an RLC ticket. Why let go of the "free chance" a TBD gives you, in addition to the invaluable opportunity to make sure your arguments go "on the record" (very important if you decide to appeal)? There's also the slight chance that if the judge sees your well-written TBD, he/she may decide it's not worth having the appellate department decide in your favor and thereby put the majority of RLC tickets at risk, and may just dismiss your TBD.

    While I do agree with the "free chance"a TBD gives you (and in the way it affords you a look at the officer's statement + evidence if you lose and before a TDN)... BUT, I am not sure how it would constitute a "written record" in the chance the case goes to appeal, and here is why:

    Defendant cannot spring directly from a TBD to an appeal, he/she MUST go through a trial de novo before having the right to appeal.

    Once you file for a trial de novo, the TBD decision is set aside, in fact it is almost forgotten in that you couldn't use your declaration as evidence in your trial and I also highly doubt you can refer to or utilize the officer's declaration as part of your cross examination (in case of any discrepancy) or testimony...

    That would suggest that if you appeal and while it would be essential that you state that you went through the TBD process, to the TDN, I am not sure how a written declaration would stand as being proof of anything let alone a "written record of your arguments to use in an appeal".

    If you suspect you may be having to appeal, or as a just in case, make a timely request for a court reporter to be present at the TDN (you'll likely have to pay for his/her time), an electronic recording of the proceeding (you may have to pay for a copy of the recording (IIRC it is $25 in L.A.)), or check with the court to see if that will happen automatically, or alternatively, make a timely request that you be allowed to record it yourself!

    Quote:

    Quoting quirkyquark
    View Post
    ^^^ Agree, it's a dilemma. I read the rules to have two different ways though:




    (3) Election gives you the option of filing TR-205 by the appearance date, OR the extended date in (2). You only get an extended date if you submit a "written request for a trial by written declaration", which the language ("in addition to") in (3) clarifies is DIFFERENT from the TR-205 form. I take it to mean an "informal" written request. If you submit such a request, you should receive the form and the instructions; you then fill out and submit the form. "Election form" (as bolded) is confusing, though...

    The LA County courtesy notices specifically have a box in the tear-off portion you send back that says (IIRC) "I request a trial by declaration", so technically no other request or letter is necessary.

    If possible, please take care of this in person since you're probably close by.

    And yet, there is no escaping the bolded part:

    Quote:

    (2)Extending due date

    If the clerk receives the defendant's written request for a trial by written declaration by the appearance date indicated on the Notice to Appear, the clerk must, within 15 calendar days after receiving the defendant's written request, extend the appearance date 25 calendar days and must give or mail notice to the defendant of the extended due date on the Request for Trial by Written Declaration (form TR-205) with a copy of the Instructions to Defendant (form TR-200) and any other required forms.

    (3)Election

    The defendant must file a Request for Trial by Written Declaration (form TR-205) with the clerk by the appearance date indicated on the Notice to Appear or the extended due date as provided in (2). The Request for Trial by Written Declaration (form TR-205) must be filed in addition to the defendant's written request for a trial by written declaration, unless the defendant's request was made on the election form.
    The fact it is described as a "request for..." along with a MUST in the same sentence, that to me would suggest that if you submit the request on a TR-205 and an error is committed and you were in fact compliant with a MUST as stated in the court rules, they will have to bow to you, however, if you submitted in a "informal" letter and an error was committed, they can point at you and say "you din't comply with the MUST in the court rule now bend over for your spanking!

    All of that while I agree that the inclusion of the "or the extended due date as provided in (2)" would suggest that the election refers to a subsequent stage following receipt of the request by the clerk and in turn having the date extended...

    Quote:

    Quoting quirkyquark
    View Post
    (3) Election gives you the option of filing TR-205 by the appearance date, OR the extended date in (2). You only get an extended date if you submit a "written request for a trial by written declaration", which the language ("in addition to") in (3) clarifies is DIFFERENT from the TR-205 form.

    LOLOL... OMG I'm cracking up... Never really noticed that this rule is so damn twisted it is scary!

    In response to your point, how can that entire paragraph be titled as "ELECTION" when you had already presumably made the "election" in paragraph # 2 and your date to submit your declaration had already been set!

    At any rate... What would I do?

    1. I sure as hell would NOT EVER deal with a court, ANY COURT by mail. Does not matter if I have to drive or for how long!
    2. I would print the form online, use the PDF filler to complete name/case/... etc, take it to the clerk have them stamp it and date it, and I am back to editing my statement.

    ETA: after reading the top few paragraphs of TR-200, I can see how you would be correct especially with the way "paragraph 1" begins in a similar fashion to subparagraph (3) Election.

    I will still stick by my contention that with a letter, there are 2 errors that can be made. Clerk can misread it and assume its a written request for a regular trial (as prescribed by VC 40519) or the can not read it at all, and assume a guilty plea and payment of fine!

    Election form on the Courtesy Letter.... Maybe!

    Quote:

    Quoting MIVGTI
    View Post
    Got it, will pick up request tomorrow. I sent the bail out today by itself by mail to ensure it got there in time. Thanks again guys, much appreciated.

    You should not have sent the bail out by itself. When you're in court tomorrow, tell them you did that and see what they suggest!!!
  • 10-25-2011, 06:11 PM
    quirkyquark
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    Quote:

    Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    I am usually of the belief that a TBD should include some sort of statement. One can be cautious so as not to err and admit guilt or incriminate him/herself. TBD is in the court file and therefore can be easily seen by the judge and I simply think it gives the wrong impression to request a Trial by WRITTEN DECLARATION and utilize the court's time in adjudicating a TBD when in fact, all you have to DECLARE in WRITING and in your defense is : "I plead not guilty"...

    If possible, I agree it's certainly advisable to include something more than just a plea. That said, the burden of proof is on the prosecution, though that is sometimes not adhered to in adjudging TBDs.

    Quote:

    Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    While I do agree with the "free chance"a TBD gives you (and in the way it affords you a look at the officer's statement + evidence if you lose and before a TDN)... BUT, I am not sure how it would constitute a "written record" in the chance the case goes to appeal, and here is why:

    You're right, it's not usually part of the record on appeal. The usual record is the clerk's transcript (Rule 8.912), although the parties can stipulate to using the court file instead (which would contain the TBD).

    Quote:

    Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    Once you file for a trial de novo, the TBD decision is set aside, in fact it is almost forgotten in that you couldn't use your declaration as evidence in your trial and I also highly doubt you can refer to or utilize the officer's declaration as part of your cross examination (in case of any discrepancy) or testimony...

    All true, but I've seen a judge (who currently handles all traffic trials in LA Metro) refer to the lack of a "defense" offered in testimony in the TBD as one of the reasons for disbelieving the defendant (the issue here was a "construction worker who waved me past the stop sign" that was not mentioned in an otherwise four-page-long declaration :eek:

    Here's an interesting off-topic question...in an appeal of a TDN, can you collaterally attack the judgment of the TBD (which was technically vacated by the TDN), either in the appeal or via petition? I may have a first-hand answer sometime soon. See PC 1473.6(a)(2) for a hint ;) I'll post more details once I have the transcript in hand.

    Quote:

    Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    That would suggest that if you appeal and while it would be essential that you state that you went through the TBD process, to the TDN, I am not sure how a written declaration would stand as being proof of anything let alone a "written record of your arguments to use in an appeal".

    Agreed. To that end, I'd recommend preparing a brief and having it submitted into evidence at the beginning of the trial.

    Quote:

    Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    If you suspect you may be having to appeal, or as a just in case, make a timely request for a court reporter to be present at the TDN (you'll likely have to pay for his/her time), an electronic recording of the proceeding (you may have to pay for a copy of the recording (IIRC it is $25 in L.A.)), or check with the court to see if that will happen automatically, or alternatively, make a timely request that you be allowed to record it yourself!

    • Court reporters are exorbitant -- I think the minimum is $382 for "half a day." (but happy to be proven wrong!)
    • Check if the court electronically records -- many do. In LA, I know that all proceedings with pro-tem judges are recorded by rule. Requesting electronic recording may be the best option if it's not automatic.
    • You can ask the judge to let you record it yourself for your notes anytime before the trial, but this is NOT usable by anyone other than yourself and has no relevance on appeal.
    • The significance of all this, if folks are wondering, is that you usually need some sort of "oral record" on appeal. The cheaper/slower option is a "settled statement" where you and the judge hash out what happened over (one, occasionally more) in-person visits. The faster way is to have a court-reporter's transcript OR have a court-reporter make a transcript from an official electronic recording. The latter may cost you a little (unless you can claim indigency), but it's more accurate and less trouble.


    Edit: Just saw TG's edits re TBD requests. It is very twisted, and I too strongly prefer and recommend dealing with these things in person. If the courtesy notice has an "election form" to be sent back, you should be fine. My only worry with sending in a TR-205 to "request" a TBD is that a "pro-active" clerk might consider that submission of the TBD without reading what was written on the form and schedule the matter for consideration by a judge!

    No matter which you send, I'd recommend getting an extension and leave enough time for you to somehow check with them that it has been processed properly and if not, have them fix it before the deadline.
  • 10-27-2011, 02:31 PM
    MIVGTI
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    Wow, this thread has become a wealth of information in itself! I went by the courthouse in person today and obtained the forms, which I had previously thought were different than the PDF forms that I have. Regardless they were nice enough to type in all of the court info for me lol :) and it shows the bail amount already deposited so hopefully the TBD is read when it is sent in. I have a 2 week extension (I misread somewhere that it was 25 days) so I will send it in before November 3. Thanks again for your time and effort!
  • 11-07-2011, 09:34 PM
    quirkyquark
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    MIVGTI: you got pm.
  • 12-10-2011, 12:42 PM
    MIVGTI
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    After waiting for the results from the court for more than a month, I am ecstatic to say that I was found NOT GUILTY! Thank you to all who helped, but especially the brilliant quirkyquark, whose preparation won this case. Sincerely, thank you again!
  • 12-10-2011, 04:35 PM
    That Guy
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    Quote:

    Quoting MIVGTI
    View Post
    After waiting for the results from the court for more than a month, I am ecstatic to say that I was found NOT GUILTY! Thank you to all who helped, but especially the brilliant quirkyquark, whose preparation won this case. Sincerely, thank you again!

    Congrats...

    For what its worth, and NOT TO TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM QUIRKY but a simple check-mark next to the "Not Guilty" box on the Decision and Notice of Decision form leaves a lot to be pondered as to why it concluded that way.

    At the end of the day, lets all hope its a "lesson learned" for those involved. Because even if you have a winning argument, no one wants to go through the hassle of a TBD or a trial.

    In other words "An ounce of prevention (by Driving carefully) is worth a pound of cure"...

    And with the main topic coming to a fruitful end, is it safe to assume that MIVGTI wouldn't object to us having a discussion of a couple of points that previously came up?

    If so...

    Quote:

    Quoting quirkyquark
    View Post
    All true, but I've seen a judge (who currently handles all traffic trials in LA Metro) refer to the lack of a "defense" offered in testimony in the TBD as one of the reasons for disbelieving the defendant (the issue here was a "construction worker who waved me past the stop sign" that was not mentioned in an otherwise four-page-long declaration :eek:


    Well there are some code sections (PC & VC) that would not allow for specific forms/documents/records to be used against a defendant (example DMV records of action taken against a defendant per VC 40807) and yet it allows use of the same for the purpose of impeaching the credibility of a witness... So in such a case, and even without any knowledge of a specific code section allowing the use of a TBD form in that manner, in this day and age of people's claims of "rubber stamps" and that "TBDs aren't even read by the Judge", I am one to give a big pat on the back of that judge for not only paying attention during the trial, but for going the extra mile of reading a 4 page declaration!

    ^That^, was only a side note.... I was mainly curious about this part:

    Quote:

    Quoting quirkyquark
    View Post
    Here's an interesting off-topic question...in an appeal of a TDN, can you collaterally attack the judgment of the TBD (which was technically vacated by the TDN), either in the appeal or via petition? I may have a first-hand answer sometime soon. See PC 1473.6(a)(2) for a hint I'll post more details once I have the transcript in hand.


    Was that before or after this came up in your own appeal thread? (Too lazy to look)!
  • 12-10-2011, 05:13 PM
    MIVGTI
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    Quote:

    Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    "An ounce of prevention (by Driving carefully) is worth a pound of cure"...

    This undoubtedly is your 97%.. Though I suppose finding flaws in an argument is the essence of law, as a layman I will not question "why" the not guilty check mark is there. If QQ wishes to post the evidence found he will, but he dug deep and the bottom line is, at least for who it matters to the most (the client), he was successful. Can't really ask too much more than that!
  • 12-10-2011, 06:06 PM
    quirkyquark
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    Quote:

    Quoting MIVGTI
    View Post
    This undoubtedly is your 97%.. Though I suppose finding flaws in an argument is the essence of law, as a layman I will not question "why" the not guilty check mark is there. If QQ wishes to post the evidence found he will, but he dug deep and the bottom line is, at least for who it matters to the most (the client), he was successful. Can't really ask too much more than that!

    First, congratulations!!!

    The two usual ways you "win" a TBD is either:
    • the cop doesn't submit his side or is late in doing so (more common), or
    • he does, but the judge actually buys your argument and decides in your favor. (less common)


    I think TG's implication was that it may have been (a). We can only know for sure if MIVGTI--after he gets his bail back--goes to the court and requests the copy of the officer's declaration; if it doesn't exists, it was (a) and if it does, it was (b).

    In favor of (b) are the following three points:
    • The decision form (TR-215) contains three checkboxes: Not Guilty, Guilty and Dismiss. One assumes that the Dismiss box is more appropriate if the reason is that the officer never submitted his side.
    • I believe the TBD decision deadline was sometime next month; if so, they only reason it would have been submitted to the judge early is that both sided has already sent in their paperwork.
    • Since the officer's TBD for a red light ticket can pretty much be pre-printed with a few blanks to fill out, the city would have to really not care about this cash cow to not respond.





    Quote:

    Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    I am one to give a big pat on the back of that judge for not only paying attention during the trial, but for going the extra mile of reading a 4 page declaration!

    That's the LA Metro traffic trial judge, and he was not even the TBD judge, but just trying to assess the credibility of the defendant's oral testimony! (hence my suggestion to you in your thread to change venue *if possible and desirable*).

    Incidentally, the TBD in this case was also about 4 pages and much denser than the above lady's tale. Props to this judge too! Since MIVGTI has kindly agreed, I'll post it for others' benefit once I check to make sure there's no personal information in there. It's pretty specific to Ventura's Redflex contract though, but it may come in handy for other cities that still have cost-neutral provisions.

    Quote:

    Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    ^That^, was only a side note.... I was mainly curious about this part....Was that before or after this came up in your own appeal thread? (Too lazy to look)!

    I think it was before, when I was still waiting for the non-existent transcript.

    After reading the only case law on TBD procedures (excluding speedy trials): People v. Kennedy (2008) 168 Cal. App. 4th 1233 quite a few times for my 1473.6, my thoughts are the following:

    • In general, other states' and US Supreme Court case law on trial de novos deals with situations where some states, for minor misdemeanors, give you a bench trial; if you lose, you can request an automatic trial de novo in front of a jury. The two relevant holdings from those are that:
      1. Such a trial de novo basically resets you to just after the plea, wiping out the previous trial, judgement, evidence, everything -- it's as if it never happened.
      2. Such trial de novos are not (usually) barred by the double-jeopardy clause.
    • The Kennedy court, however, bases its interpretation of our trial de novos on the administrative TDNs for appealing admin decisions, provided for by Gov. Code 53069.4. e.g., the final stage of a parking ticket appeal.
    • Our previous opinions of "the TBD shouldn't matter", being based on the first kind of TDN, are therefore without foundation. In fact, the CA admin. TDNs explicitly allow the file of the previous proceedings (TBD) to be entered into evidence. So it looks like TBDs MAY be used for impeaching credibility or other purposes...
    • The Kennedy opinion goes to GREAT lengths to phrase this exactly multiple times: "A TBD may only be appealed after a TDN has been sought", instead of saying, even once, that "only the judgment of a TDN may be appealed." This is significant because it may open up the possibility of appealing a TBD after simply seeking the TDN, and requesting the TDN to be continued until the TBD appeal is decided.
    • ALSO significant is that case law for the admin TDNs relied on by the Kennedy court has held that an admin decision may be appealed either by a TDN OR via writ petition.


    Anyway, I'll post about my 1473.6 in the appeals thread soon. The notice re briefs was just sent out on the 8th, and I still have to find out IF the corrected record dealt with the judge's statements or they're still there....
  • 12-10-2011, 08:59 PM
    quirkyquark
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    Here's the TBD.

    Exhibits referenced are on this page.
  • 12-10-2011, 09:36 PM
    That Guy
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    Quote:

    Quoting MIVGTI
    View Post
    This undoubtedly is your 97%...

    You obviously missed the obvious joke!


    Quote:

    Quoting MIVGTI
    View Post
    Though I suppose finding flaws in an argument is the essence of law, as a layman I will not question "why" the not guilty check mark is there.

    And before post #54, we had a video clearly showing you going though a red light, a couple of posts by you indicating that you have no clue as to what constitutes a violation and what doesn't, and a draft of your "Dear Your Honor" declaration in post #32 which would have gotten you zilch.

    So was it so wrong of me to try and put things in the proper perspective AND based on what was posted? You're free to have your own opinion!

    Again, the lesson learned here is not that I have a "simple joke" in my signature that most people misunderstand, not that politicians are greedy, and not that the city issuing this citation had an invalid contract; the lesson for you Mr. “I am a contractor and this fine will be devastating” is much simpler than all of that. (HINT: its about traffic laws and the way you drive)!

    And please, don't confuse “lucky” with “cocky”.... You got "Lucky" shortly BEFORE you find out the result... Don't get "Cocky" AFTER!


    Quote:

    Quoting quirkyquark
    View Post
    In favor of (b) are the following three points:
    The decision form (TR-215) contains three checkboxes: Not Guilty, Guilty and Dismiss. One assumes that the Dismiss box is more appropriate if the reason is that the officer never submitted his side.

    Great explanation there Quirky, however, I must add one more possibility to the "dismissal" option, specifically, when it is determined that due to a contract which violates the provisions of CVC 21455.5, the citation should not have been issued, a "dismissal" of that citation is more appropriate when compared to a "not guilty" verdict!

    Even with that said, one should not necessarily rely on an invalid contract as a guaranteed means to dismissal. Apparently there are times where the prosecution can overcome that technicality, or at least this one appellate court thought so:

    People v. Daugherty, Cal: Superior Court, Appellate Div., Napa 2011

    And I quote:

    Quote:

    CONCLUSION

    The Redflex contract's cost neutrality provision violated the Vehicle Code prohibition against basing compensation on the number of citations issued. Evidence exclusion, however, is not permitted simply because of the statutory violation. Rather, the proper consequence is to preclude the People from relying on the Vehicle Code section 1553 presumption of accuracy and to instead shift the burden to the People to prove by a preponderance of the evidence that the photographs are accurate representations. The People met that burden in this case. Because the trial court properly authenticated the photographic evidence, and the finding of guilty was supported by substantial evidence, defendant's conviction is affirmed.
    And you can read between the lines!


    ETA: Quirky has obviously been through that case! :p
  • 12-10-2011, 09:48 PM
    quirkyquark
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    Quote:

    Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    Even with that said, one should not necessarily rely on an invalid contract as a guaranteed means to dismissal. Apparently there are times where the prosecution can overcome that technicality, or at least this one appellate court thought so:

    People v. Daugherty, Cal: Superior Court, Appellate Div., Napa 2011
    ...
    ETA: Quirky has obviously been through that case! :p

    Yep, I turned Daugherty into a positive! In fact, it is the lynchpin of the argument, because it establishes very narrow standards for "preponderance of evidence" good enough to counterbalance the cost-neutrality. Here's the conclusion, which says, don't dismiss unless you find that the officer's declaration/evidence aren't up to the Daugherty standard.

    Quote:


    Given the above arguments and persuasive case law from the Appellate Division of the Napa Superior Court, I request the court to find any evidence submitted by the People insufficient and dismiss the case unless it finds all of the following:

    1. The officer submitting the declaration possesses the qualifications to testify as an expert witness on the photo enforcement system in question, and
    2. Authenticated evidence of such qualifications is provided by this officer in, or attached to, the declaration, and
    3. This officer personally audited the light and system in question—at Mills Rd. & Telegraph Rd.—within seven days or less of the date of this citation, and
    4. He/she personally evaluated the audit and found the data capture and transmission to Redflex to be accurate, and
    5. Given the financial incentives for Redflex to tamper with the photos and video, persuasive evidence is provided showing an unbroken and unimpeachable chain-of-custody for these from the moment they are captured and converted into digital information by the camera at the intersection until they reach, and are under complete control of, the City’s Police Department.

    Quote:

    Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    ...I must add one more possibility to the "dismissal" option, specifically, when it is determined that due to a contract which violates the provisions of CVC 21455.5, the citation should not have been issued, a "dismissal" of that citation is more appropriate when compared to a "not guilty" verdict!

    Agreed -- I think either would technically be appropriate. But, in a regular trial, if the evidence is found to be insufficient at the end by the judge/jury, the verdict pronounced is "not guilty." On the other hand, a mid-trial PC 1118(.1) motion to dismiss (which the TBD was officially phrased as) would result in a dismissal, with no verdict.

    We'd need to get into the mind of the judge to find out whether he decided to let MIVGTI "win" in the "middle" of the trial (dismissal), or at the "end", when a verdict was required! :D

    Not that it matters here, or to traffic infractions, but since we're getting academic the difference between dismissal/verdict would be that a "not guilty" is usually a bar to re-prosecution (double jeopardy), while a dismissal is not. I think CA allows up to two re-trials for felony dismissals, but restricts misdemeanors (and infractions) to one, i.e. second "dismissal" means you are home free.




    I should add that until early this year, evidence code-based arguments against red light tickets were getting defendant-friendly opinions. The LASC App. Div. changed all that in February with People v. Goldsmith. I imagine RLC tickets in LA County have become more unbeatable since then. Still, Goldsmith's holding is confined to a narrow set of circumstances, and no confrontation issues have been raised, so all's not lost yet. Of course, best to get this done and over with before it even has to be appealed!

    Assuming that you know your trial judge/commissioner is not a total tool, a short pre-trial brief, consisting mostly of relevant statutes/quotes from citations, would certainly be helpful so that both you and the judge are not floundering when it comes to evidence objections.
  • 12-11-2011, 12:41 AM
    MIVGTI
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    Quote:

    Quoting MIVGTI
    View Post
    This undoubtedly is your 97%..

    Hold on.. who missed the joke? lol

    You are making some pretty big assumptions without having anything to base it on and I don't wish for this to become a pissing match. I did see the amount of work that was put together, so when you say "not to take anything away from quirky", you do kind of sound like "that guy" when he says, "I don't want to sound like a dick, but..". So please don't mistake "lucky" for "cocky", quirky won the case for me.. I guess I'd just call it a good thing, get it?
  • 12-11-2011, 06:07 AM
    That Guy
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    Quote:

    Quoting MIVGTI
    View Post
    Hold on.. who missed the joke? lol

    Obviously, YOU did!


    Quote:

    Quoting MIVGTI
    View Post
    You are making some pretty big assumptions without having anything to base it on

    Give an example...

    What you might not know is that the "question" I posed (dismissal versus not guilty), is a pretty legit question that should be answered by each and every poster who comes through here. And it does come up in cases where the original posted updates the result of his/her TBD...

    ^That^, is a question, NOT an assumption...

    Get a copy of the officer's declaration and let us try and figure out what worked in your case!

    ^That^, is a request, NOT an assumption...

    As for me saying you got lucky don't get cocky, that too is NOT an assumption, and you did in fact get lucky. And here is how:

    (1) When you came here, you had no clue that the contract will be invalid. Lucky part 1.
    (2) The case law citation that might have won your case for you originated in Napa County, and Appellate decisions in Napa County are not necessarily binding in Ventura County. Meaning the judge reading your TBD could have legitimately rejected the argument as it was stated in your TBD, and as a result, found you "guilty". Lucky Part 2.
    (3) The judge reading your TBD did not necessarily have to find you "not guilty" if in his opinion, the prosecution proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt... (You can also browse the forum and you'll come across cases where people claim their TBD wasn't even read (I doubt its that bad but who knows)). Lucky part 3.
    (4) Same thing applies to the judge at a trial de novo. He is under no obligation to find in your favor (for a perfect example of a case that should have been dismissed at the trial de novo but wasn't, you can read Quirky's own case). Lucky part 4.
    (5) So you can appeal but again, that Napa decision is fairly unique and requires a strict interpretation of some code sections for it to apply. And again, same as in (2), the appellate would not necessarily have to follow a ruling from Napa County. Lucky part 5...

    I could go on and on and on...

    ^Those^ are examples of REALISTIC situations, they are not assumptions!

    So...
    Is it rare to get a dismissal at the TBD level... You bet!

    Did you get lucky in this case because yours was dismissed at that stage? You sure as hell did!

    Did Quirky win the case for you? Well, considering the fact that you couldn't argue your way out of a paper sack with that declaration draft you posted, he sure as hell did!

    So go ahead... Point me to the portion of my last few posts where have "I made assumptions without having anything to base 'it' on"

    Quote:

    Quoting MIVGTI
    View Post
    ... and I don't wish for this to become a pissing match.

    Then don't.... its pretty simple, for the THIRD TIME in less than 24 hours, the point here "learn your lesson" -as in, now you know that you MUST stop at the limit line when you're facing a red light- and move on!

    And actually, there is lesson #2, but it depends on lesson #1: If you don't learn your lesson #1, the next time you see cameras flash might be in a city that has a legit contract, and you might not be as lucky as you were this time.

    Quote:

    Quoting MIVGTI
    View Post
    I did see the amount of work that was put together, so when you say "not to take anything away from quirky", you do kind of sound like "that guy" when he says, "I don't want to sound like a dick, but..".

    Dude... When I say "Not to take anything away from Quirky" it means Quirky gets all the credit...

    It really isn't that difficult to decipher and shouldn't take several posts to explain!

    And so when you criticize me for saying that simply because you don't know what it means, you do kind of sound like "MIVGTI" when he says "I don't want to sound like an idiot, but...".!

    Quote:

    Quoting MIVGTI
    View Post
    I guess I'd just call it a good thing, get it?

    Who in here said it wasn't a good thing? I sure as hell didn't.

    But see, for you, it ends here (hopefully... When you get your check and later, if you're careful about your driving)... For me, even for Quirky, it might be helpful for us to know exactly what happened and how!

    But even then, understand that as quirky stated:


    Quote:

    Quoting quirkyquark
    View Post
    We'd need to get into the mind of the judge to find out whether he decided to let MIVGTI "win" in the "middle" of the trial (dismissal), or at the "end", when a verdict was required! :D

    Meaning, even if/when you get the officer's declaration, post it here, we get to read it, we might not be able to figure out why you were found “not guilty”! And any conclusion at that time would require some ASSUMPTIONS!

    And watch this... Even Quirky agrees with me:


    Quote:

    Quoting quirkyquark
    View Post
    Agreed -- I think either would technically be appropriate.


    Moving along...

    Quote:

    Quoting quirkyquark
    View Post
    But, in a regular trial, if the evidence is found to be insufficient at the end by the judge/jury, the verdict pronounced is "not guilty." On the other hand, a mid-trial PC 1118(.1) motion to dismiss (which the TBD was officially phrased as) would result in a dismissal, with no verdict.


    Quirky... You're saying that on the one hand, the evidence is insufficient and the judge finds you not guilty.....
    Yet, on the other hand, you're making a PC1118 motion that the evidence is insufficient and the judge decides to dismiss..

    And yet on both hands, the judge can at any point during the trial, and on his own motion... decide and say "I've heard enough... I find the defendant 'not guilty'".... Or wait until you make your motion and say "defense motion sustained, 'case dismissed'", or (the part that MIVGTI is assuming personal immunity from) he can do neither, go against the grain and say "I find the defendant guilty!"


    But let's look at specifics:

    In this particular case, the declaration started with:


    Quote:

    Quoting Linked TBD
    I motion for this citation to be dismissed under section 1118 of the Penal Code because the evidence to support it is insufficient and, arguably, inadmissible.


    And it ended with an entire section with the following as the heading:


    Quote:

    I I I . M O T I O N F O R D I S M I S S A L

    And yet the rulling as reported by the OP was:


    Quote:

    Quoting MIVGTI
    I was found NOT GUILTY!

    Does that mean that the motion to dismiss was denied?

    I'm not going to make an assumption... Wouldn't want MIVGTI to get his panties in a wad again!

    I'm done here!

    P.S. Congrats Quirky!
  • 12-11-2011, 08:35 PM
    MIVGTI
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    Boy, I only skimmed through your long winded rant, but I'll humor you in a reply again (though not to every miniscule point, I have a life going on here:) I'm not an attorney, that's why I'm here asking for help with this in the first place, but if you ever need any tips on painting your house I'd be glad to offer them. The point was, I wanted to make sure you in fact DIDN'T take anything away from Mr. Q. I AM a lucky sonofabitch that he took interest enough to put together all he did and I never claimed to be anything but that. So you call me cocky? That is an assumption. As far as the rest, you might want to look down at your own panties, partner, the only ones I wear are on my head and they have your mom's initials on them.
  • 01-17-2012, 09:12 PM
    UnfortunateNewb
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    Hi,
    I'm in the unenviable position of paying $960 for two right-turn red light violations happened in November-2011. Both happened a week apart at the same intersection. Below are the details:
    a) Location: Fremont, Alameda county
    b) Date: violation: First week of Nov and second week of november. Court dates: 1/31 and 2/16
    c) Violation: Rolling right turn. Both are 21453a.
    d) The "are you stupid to let this happen twice?" question: No I'm not stupid. I was going through a very rough phase and was not paying attention.
    d) Additional details: The second time, I did realize what was happening and put a hard brake. Unfortunately it was too late.
    I'm ready to pay the fine of at-least one and pay the traffic school to get it out of the records. I'm trying to see if I could do something about the second. $960 is way too much for a single dad :(. In both cases, it's clearly shown that I had put the breaks(back break lights are red), however vehicle might not have come to full stop.

    I was going through this thread and was wondering if I could put up a similar defense? If yes, How do I get all the documents that MIVGTI put up as exhibits? Is there any down side to pleading not guilty and do a trial by declaration? Some one told me that I could get my fee increased if I loose. Is that true?
    Please help. I know nothing about law, courts and stuff. Last time I went through was for my divorce and trust me that was not a pleasant experience :p. Is there anyway I can get this reduced or atleast get one tossed out?

    thanks
    UNB
  • 01-17-2012, 09:27 PM
    That Guy
    Re: Can My Right Turn Red Light Ticket Be Beat
    Quote:

    Quoting UnfortunateNewb
    View Post
    Hi,
    I'm in the unenviable position of paying $960 for two right-turn red light violations happened in November-2011. Both happened a week apart at the same intersection. Below are the details:
    a) Location: Fremont, Alameda county
    b) Date: violation: First week of Nov and second week of november. Court dates: 1/31 and 2/16
    c) Violation: Rolling right turn. Both are 21453a.
    d) The "are you stupid to let this happen twice?" question: No I'm not stupid. I was going through a very rough phase and was not paying attention.
    d) Additional details: The second time, I did realize what was happening and put a hard brake. Unfortunately it was too late.
    I'm ready to pay the fine of at-least one and pay the traffic school to get it out of the records. I'm trying to see if I could do something about the second. $960 is way too much for a single dad :(. In both cases, it's clearly shown that I had put the breaks(back break lights are red), however vehicle might not have come to full stop.

    I was going through this thread and was wondering if I could put up a similar defense? If yes, How do I get all the documents that MIVGTI put up as exhibits? Is there any down side to pleading not guilty and do a trial by declaration? Some one told me that I could get my fee increased if I loose. Is that true?
    Please help. I know nothing about law, courts and stuff. Last time I went through was for my divorce and trust me that was not a pleasant experience :p. Is there anyway I can get this reduced or atleast get one tossed out?

    thanks
    UNB

    Please start a new thread. You can obviously copy and paste the info from your post here.

    Also include the exact date of each violation, the date on each notice that you received, the postmark from each envelope and the date you received each (if you remember it).

    Thanks!
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