Understand that if the officer is CHP, it is almost certain that he is radar certified and that also means that he has been certified in visual estimation. As such, he may not be required to provide much detail to the court regarding any pace only that he outline his training and experience to support an estimate for speed.
So, while your calculation might help to raise reasonable doubt if you can get some sort of numbers for speed and distance and time out of the officer, it may be little more than his statement at court of his approximate distance from you and his estimate of your speed.
Have Not Received Discovery, Need to File TBD
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10-26-2011, 01:55 PMcdwjavaRe: Have Not Received Discovery, Need to File TBD
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10-26-2011, 02:16 PM88sRe: Have Not Received Discovery, Need to File TBDHe never reported any radar on the citation, is it possible that he did indeed use it and submit it into the court?Quote:
Quoting cdwjava
Also, it was night (9:15 PM) on the 210 fwy, no street lights on this section of the fwy. May I raise the fact that visual estimation would be hindered on a dark fwy and when the observed vehicle is a black car?
I would like to add, on the back on the ticket (discovery) it states the officer paced me in Lane #1. On my copy of the citation it states "22349(a)VC-Speed over 65 mph (#2 lane)." Is there any reason why the details are different?
Thanks! -
10-26-2011, 02:34 PMcdwjavaRe: Have Not Received Discovery, Need to File TBDIt's possible, but even if he did not use radar, his visual estimation can still be considered due to his training.Quote:
Quoting 88s
Unless you were blacked out, it may not buy you much. However, I am not sure if the CHP's radar training includes training in nighttime visual estimation so lighting might be an issue to be raised, but it's not likely to be too damning even if he lacks specific nighttime training as he likely has a good amount of experience running radar at night and thus verifying his visual estimations with radar confirmation.Quote:
Also, it was night (9:15 PM) on the 210 fwy, no street lights on this section of the fwy. May I raise the fact that visual estimation would be hindered on a dark fwy and when the observed vehicle is a black car?
Were you in the #2 lane?Quote:
I would like to add, on the back on the ticket (discovery) it states the officer paced me in Lane #1. On my copy of the citation it states "22349(a)VC-Speed over 65 mph (#2 lane)." Is there any reason why the details are different?
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10-26-2011, 02:53 PM88sRe: Have Not Received Discovery, Need to File TBDNot at the time his lights went on. I went to the #2 lane when I was instructed to pull to the shoulder. But this is probably not a big deal.Quote:
Quoting cdwjava
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10-26-2011, 02:55 PMcdwjavaRe: Have Not Received Discovery, Need to File TBDYou might have to ask him in your cross examination as to what was meant by it, but what is most important will be his testimony.Quote:
Quoting 88s
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10-26-2011, 03:53 PMquirkyquarkRe: Have Not Received Discovery, Need to File TBDI was too lazy late at night to annotate with links, but all the info's online, at least for the LA Superior Court:Quote:
Quoting 88s
- Here's the courtroom directory for Pomona North. The second half of the page contains Courtroom Schedules and tells us that Traffic Trials happen Mon-Fri at 1:30 PM in Dept 1.
- The judge directory tells us that Dept 1 is handled by "FREDRICKS, JOSH M", "Assigned Judge". You'll see assigned judge often -- that means it's a retired CA judge who's been "assigned" because of the heavy caseload and because one or more vacancies have not been filled.
- The LA County Bar Association makes available the weekly assignments of judges though, and should be considered more current. It also tells you if a judge is not going to be there certain days this week, or if a temporary judge will be on certain days, etc. That document says that Dept 1 in your courthouse is being handled this week by "Comm'r Peters", which the judge directory above shows as "Commissioner Anthony Peters". This doesn't seem like a temporary assignment because the document usually makes that obvious.
- The "resume" info is just googling the names with "superior court" added on. Here's the info for Peters (search page for "peters"), and here for Judge Fredricks.
Good. If possible, still attend one session on the weekday/time your TDN is assigned to.Quote:
Quoting 88s
Of course anyone is allowed to sit in on a criminal trial (remember the Constitution, Sixth Amendment, "speedy public trial"? :)) The bailiff will probably ask you as you check in with all the defendants scheduled then, I just say "I'm here to watch." If you stay till the end, the judge may very well be curious (more so to be sure he didn't miss someone), just say the same thing. I've only ever seen judges be happy about it ("Good for you!", "It is supposed to be a public trial!", etc.). If they probe further, be honest and say "I may be in court in a few months, I just wanted to get an idea of how everything works."
Sorry, but no cigar. Night court everywhere in CA is only for arraignments (i.e. first appearances). They don't do trials at night -- it would become a giant loophole!Quote:
Quoting 88s
You most definitely do (the officer certainly can, as you might see in one of your courtroom visits!). LA Metro (the big courthouse downtown), for example, explicitly tells you on the TDN notice that you can reschedule it once, without apparently needing a reason (called "good cause" in legalese), if you let them know at least ten business days before. Other courts will also let you do this, sometimes just by asking the clerk, other times actually having proof, like plane tickets, etc. and they may want you to write up a letter to the judge.Quote:
Quoting That Guy
Some courts will say on their TDN notice "no continuances will be granted", etc. but it's just an obstacle. The rules of court require that a judge consider your request if you think you have "good cause". Ask the Pomona clerk when you go in what their policy is.
TG is right that you don't get to pick a date though. You CAN request a date before/after a specific date, though, within reason ("1 year from now" ain't gonna fly)
Not a bad idea to ask the clerk about this policy. You should also try asking the bailiff and/or the clerk in the courtroom when you visit (as long as you know it's 'your' judge). After everything is said and done, if you feel just before the TDN that you want to do traffic school (and have a better chance of getting it at that point), you can always ask the judge before trial begins (in some LA courts, the officers will call out your name and talk this over with you before the judge even enters).Quote:
Quoting That Guy
Also, did you know that a lot of CA Public/Law libraries ofter free access to NOLO, including all their books in chapter-by-chapter PDFs? The one relevant here is "Fight Your Ticket and Win in CA" (a lot of things it says work better in theory than practice though). Any CA resident can access via any state law library. For example, here's the link via the San Francisco Law Library. As the page tells you, the "password" is the county in all caps with no spaces.
Once in, click Rights & Disputes...Traffic Tickets...Fight Your Ticket. This material may duplicate what you saw on their free site, but see Chapter 12 for an overview of trial; parts of Chapter 11 on cross-examining, in particular p. 266 for the pacing questions.
There are some suggestions about possible angles of attack in your discussion with Carl (cdwjava), like nighttime, lane confusion, etc., but again, once we have the testimony (in the form of the declaration) we can really help you try to pin it down. The formula may be handy, but if you use it you need to boil it down into something simple. As TG mentioned, it's an uphill battle and doing things on the fly (or talking about a lot of math) is not recommended.
Thanks so much for the reminder in the original (resurrected!) thread. Here's the motion instructions for the court I was talking about:Quote:
Quoting That Guy
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/632...cmotion640.png
I have since learned that (post-arraignment) pre-trial motions at LA Metro in Dept. 67 CAN be done by submitting them with proper proof of service, 10 days notice, etc. to the Criminal Clerk. -
10-26-2011, 05:58 PMThat GuyRe: Have Not Received Discovery, Need to File TBDThe back of his notes say nothing regarding his speed... Only that he is rolling as in "not stopped".Quote:
Quoting 88s
The "#1 Lane 78MPH" refers to YOUR speed NOT his... And at that speed, I might say he may have simply been watching you. What got you in trouble was the rest of the note: "Suspect Vehicle accelerated at a high rate of speed. Moved behind suspect vehicle Paced At 90MPH for 1/4 mile. Stopped For Speed. Drive ?SAYED? Doing 65 - 70"
Where have I seen that form before?Quote:
Quoting quirkyquark
That "(Effective 09/01/90)" would imply that this maybe VERY old... Then again, point (1) mentions CRC 4.111 and I know the CRCs were just recently reorganized and re-numbered, and that seems to fit the current order. Still without knowing which court this is, it would be hard to qualify how applicable it is... Also, am I undestanding the "(you must specify a date)" from #4 to mean that you must select the specific date YOU want your motion heard? Is that real?
Anyway, thank you very much... Especially for this:
Sort of leaves me wondering though if it has to be submitted to the criminal clerk and whether that means it'll be heard in criminal court!Quote:
Quoting quirkyquark
Thanks again! -
10-26-2011, 06:21 PMCalifornia studentRe: Have Not Received Discovery, Need to File TBDMy question reading that is, if the DA is not a party to the case (doesn't have to appear, doesn't have to give discovery (especially given the standard lines seen when people post the DA's reply to discovery requests) etc), then why would a defendant need to serve the DA with motions?Quote:
Quoting That Guy
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10-26-2011, 06:47 PMquirkyquarkRe: Have Not Received Discovery, Need to File TBDI can assure you it's quite current and very applicable (to that specific court ONLY -- not other (smaller) courts in the county). You've probably seen it before :) Please see your PM inbox for an unredacted image with identifying info.Quote:
Quoting That Guy
Yes, you can put any date on or after the earliest available on their calendar (OR your trial date, if that's the earliest). I believe the "must have return receipt" and the date issue can be circumvented with enough persistence, but it requires going beyond the clerk window (and it's best to keep the clerks happy!).Quote:
Quoting That Guy
You specify the courtroom, the judge and a proposed day/time on the motion -- it will be heard there. The impression I got is that as long as the 10-day requirement is met, they (the traffic dept, that is) are pretty flexible about scheduling it during one of the daily trial sessions. The other implication was that for complicated matters -- anything beyond the specifically enumerated things they do at the first floor windows -- you're better off going to the criminal clerk.Quote:
Quoting That Guy
Regardless of the reason, NO COURT should accept a motion without an original proof of service (or substitute - green return receipt like the example above). I say "should" because you could possibly convince the clerk to file it, but the judge will probably throw it out for lack of PoS -- for 44c, why take that risk?Quote:
Quoting California student