Have Not Received Discovery, Need to File TBD

Thanks for the update.

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Quoting 88s

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1. What do I fill out in section 3: "I am dissatisfied with the court’s decision. I request a new trial (trial de novo) for the following violations (specify):"

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"VC 22349(a)". That's it!

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Quoting 88s

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2. Should I go about a motion, I already know ThatGuy’s response will be no, but wondering what quirkyquark thinks.

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OK, what discovery DID the CHP give you? Please scan/take pictures and post it up on imageshack so we can look at it. Also, remind me again which court are you dealing with?

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Quoting 88s

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3. What’s up with the constant mistake of the birthdate…any recourse (not trying to offend anyone) but to say that the cop was incompetent in reading a license and then did not run the license number again to find the correct date?

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No direct recourse as such, but there is a small chance it may be helpful at trial. Please scan/post the notice of correction and proof of service.

Never mind question 1, I think it meant which violation I disagree with, which is a 22349A VC.

Thanks!

Edit: Just got QuirkyQuark's reply when I refresed the tab on my browser. Thanks! The Court I am dealing with is Los Angeles Superior Court: Pomona North Courthouse.

Here are the ImageShack URLs:

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2...1100000.th.jpg
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/4...1100001.th.jpg


And here is the link to the notice of correction.

Thanks!

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/8...5201100003.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Thanks, I'll look those over. Did you get a copy of the officer's declaration from the court? That's very important in determining how to set up your defense.

Also, the front of the citation is unclear, so what's the date you were cited?

Oh, sorry I was just protecting the officer's and my identities. The date cited was 3/27/11. And for the officers declaration will the court be able to mail it to me or do I need to go in person? I either way I'll try to get it as soon as possible.

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Quoting 88s

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The date cited was 3/27/11. And for the officers declaration will the court be able to mail it to me or do I need to go in person? I either way I'll try to get it as soon as possible.

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OK, the speedo calibration isn't your favor -- it's accurate and timely.

If you can visit the court in person, they will simply give you a copy right then and there. Mail may take longer. It may be a good idea to go in person 0-3 days or so before the TDN deadline and both submit the TDN request and get the declaration. Also take a copy of the TDN request, have it stamped by the clerk and keep it as proof of submission.

It's looking like your defense will be based mostly on aggressive cross-examination. The declaration will be very helpful.

Are you eligible for traffic school? If so, are you hoping to get it if you lose at trial?

How far are you from the courthouse (it's LA, so time-wise)?

The citation has the same wrong b'date as the notice of correction, right?

I am about 30 minutes away from the court.

The citation said DOB was 9/17/2011.
The corrected DOB is 9/17/92.
Actual DOB is 9/17/91.

This is my first ticket so I believe I am eligible for traffic school and would prefer to receive it if I am found guilty.

Is submitting my TDN request in person preserve my right to a speedy trial? Or did I relinquish that right when I filed a TBD by mail?

So aggressive cross examination would consist of:

1. Asking many questions about the events of the day (such as weather, etc).
2. Asking where he pulled me over (to make a safer stop he made me drive to the exit and stop at a gas station parking lot)
3. Where were you located when you first saw my vehicle?
4. Was your car (or motorcycle) parked or moving at the time?
5. In which lane were you traveling?
6. Did you have a clear view of the traffic on the road when you claim you observed the violation?
7. Was there any other traffic on the road other than your vehicle and mine?
8. How fast was the flow of traffic?
9.Over what distance did you follow my vehicle at a steady rate of speed?
10. Was the distance between your car and mine always constant?
11. How far behind my vehicle were you while you were pacing it?

He stated he paced from 300 ft away so I could ask:
1. Do you agree that the ability to pace depends on good depth perception, so that you can follow at a constant distance?
2. Do you also agree that the farther away an object is, the more difficult it is to pace it?
3. Have you recently participated in controlled tests where you paced a vehicle a known speed from 300 ft?
4. Officer, you paced my vehicle at night, correct?
5. Would you agree it’s harder to keep a constant distance, in order to conduct an accurate pace, at night (or dusk) than in the daytime?
6. Isn’t it harder to accurately pace at night, when you can see only two taillights, as opposed to driving in the day when you can see the whole car body?
7. If you had such tires on your car, the odometer would erroneously read high, correct?
8. Were your tires’ pressures checked when your speedometer was calibrated?
9. Were they checked on the day you cited me?
10. Are you aware that a tire’s air pressure depends on its temperature?
11. Have the tires on your patrol car been rotated, or have any of them been changed since the last speedometer calibration?

I understand this is long and do not want the court to feel like I am wasting their's and the officer's time. So if there are any questions to remove please list the number. I listed all these so it may help someone else in the future.

Thanks for your help quirkquark let the record reflect you're awesome!!!

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Quoting 88s

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This is my first ticket so I believe I am eligible for traffic school and would prefer to receive it if I am found guilty.

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Once you get the TDN notice telling you when and where (i.e., which courtroom) it's set, the first thing to do, when you have the time, is to sit in on a session or two before your trial. If possible, go the same day/time (e.g. a Tuesday at 1:30 PM) your trial is set on; otherwise ask the clerk what judge usually presides at that time, and what other times (that work for you) the judge does traffic trials.

This way you get to see both the judge's demeanor as well as his tendency to grant traffic school after a loss.

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Quoting 88s

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Is submitting my TDN request in person preserve my right to a speedy trial? Or did I relinquish that right when I filed a TBD by mail?

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After a recent (2009) court decision, you relinquish that right as soon as you opt for a TBD, no matter how its filed. The court rules (4.210) say your TDN should be scheduled within 45 days of filing the request, but they DON'T say what the remedy is if that isn't done. On the rare chance the clerk makes such a mistake, there's no harm in making an oral motion as soon as you're in front of the judge to dismiss the case; any remedy is entirely up to the judge's discretion, but you might just get it!

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Quoting 88s

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So aggressive cross examination would consist of:
...
I understand this is long and do not want the court to feel like I am wasting their's and the officer's time. So if there are any questions to remove please list the number. I listed all these so it may help someone else in the future.

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Thanks for quoting the full list. It's not really worth your time (or ours) thinking about these until you have the cop's declaration. They will usually bring it to court and follow it VERY closely. I will note that some of the questions (tire pressure, etc.) don't matter here since the margin is 25 mph (above 65 mph). Depending on the judge you get, it's important to not make it look like you're wasting time and be on their good side if you want traffic school.

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Edit: I looked this up since I was searching for something similar. Traffic trials take place in the Pomona Courthouse North, at 1:30 PM, in Dept. 1. Oddly, the LASC website and the weekly judge assignment show different judges. The weekly assignment should be considered more current and has Commissioner Peters, who used to be a deputy public defender until 1999. The website has Judge Fredricks, who is an ex-cop and was a criminal defense attorney until 1986. In my limited experience judges are typically "fairer" and more "patient" with traffic defendants than commissioners, but you have to go see for yourself.

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Quoting quirkyquark

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Edit: I looked this up since I was searching for something similar. Traffic trials take place in the Pomona Courthouse North, at 1:30 PM, in Dept. 1. Oddly, the LASC website and the weekly judge assignment show different judges. The weekly assignment should be considered more current and has Commissioner Peters, who used to be a deputy public defender until 1999. The website has Judge Fredricks, who is an ex-cop and was a criminal defense attorney until 1986. In my limited experience judges are typically "fairer" and more "patient" with traffic defendants than commissioners, but you have to go see for yourself.

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Wow, quirkyquark how do you know the resume of these people? Is there a list online or have you been acquainted with them, either way its really cool.

Okay, I'll probably attend a session one of these Mondays (Maybe Oct 31 or Nov 7th to check on how they operate, is the public allowed to sit in the room without being asked why I am there?) I'll will also pick up the Officer's response.

Also you may find it interesting that V C Section 41501 was changed July 1st, 2011.
http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d17/vc41501.htm

And night court is or is not a good idea? (It's the first Monday of every month I am hoping the officer is a Fan of monday night football.:D) And how do you feel about continuances?

Thanks for your help I will update you as soon as I get more information!

I find it interesting that this whole thread was started simply because you didn't get your discovery material, and yet eventually when discovery arrived, it wasn't really that important anymore (in spite of a possible pending TDN) but the letter from the DA was...

Besides that, I know you don't like my opinion but that's never stopped me before so here it is anyway:

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Quoting 88s

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This is my first ticket so I believe I am eligible for traffic school and would prefer to receive it if I am found guilty.

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Check with the clerk to see if you can (or how) take traffic school and get it over with... CHiPper's got you square in a corner and you might not get that option after a TDN.

And yes, Quirky is awesome but this remains to be a "22349 citation for 25 over with a 'pace'"... The only thing that discovery issues add to a related case, is that they might make for an interesting discussion. At the end of the day, it still remains to be a "22349 citation for 25 over with a 'pace'". So don't judge the potential for a not guilty outcome by the size of this thread; its quite misleading!



Anyway, I'm hoping Quirky can elaborate some more on that earlier discussion we had in this thread re motions in traffic court. I really am curious to find out if those options are even remotely viable in other courts in this state.

Here is a reminder of the tail end of that discussion:

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Quoting quirkyquark

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Quoting That Guy

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Quoting quirkyquark

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Quoting That Guy

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Are you aware of ANY county in the entire state that does offer the benefit/privilege of a motion hearing for a traffic infraction case?

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Briefly, yes. I'll reserve a detailed answer for later until I can get my hands on a copy of the "Instructions for Filing a Traffic Motion" from said court.

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Take your time... But when you do end up posting anything that is related, let me reiterate that the intent of my questions above is not how to file or argue your motion, but how to get the court to schedule such hearing on a different date/time than your arraignment or your trial! Better yet, get one for L.A. County and I'm sure the OP will greatly appreciate it!

BTW, you said "Briefly, yes" but we never got the brief version!

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IIRC, the process at the relevant Traffic Division is to ask the clerk for the first free space on the motion calendar, prepare a motion for on or after that date, serve it on the DA and then file it with the court with proof of service to the DA. If the first free date is AFTER your trial is scheduled, I was informed it will be heard ON the day of the trial. As for LA County, I will try to get authoritative info soon.

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Quoting 88s

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And night court is or is not a good idea? (It's the first Monday of every month I am hoping the officer is a Fan of monday night football.:D) And how do you feel about continuances?

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You don't have the option to request a continuance on a TDN. And while you might be able to select a date, the officer has set days for when he appears in court and your date is set accordingly!

Thanks That Guy for adding to the discussion.

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Quoting That Guy

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Besides that, I know you don't like my opinion but that's never stopped me before so here it is anyway:

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On this forum I cannot dislike anyone's opinions, I have to respect what everyone says, because I cannot get advice like this anywhere else.

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Quoting That Guy

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And while you might be able to select a date, the officer has set days for when he appears in court and your date is set accordingly!

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Got it, I understand. At the court house I have to attend (Pomona North Courthouse) it is only Mondays after 1:30.


This is a question for everybody: Is there a way to find the officers initial distance(not sure but I think he reports it as "Distance Observed" 1/2 mi), would he report it because the back of the ticket discovery revealed his car was rolling and the stop was rolling? (see line 8 on the discovery) Also in the notes he reported he was going 79 miles per hour at lane #1 is this initial speed? If it is correct please observe below.

This is for the equation:

Your speed= [Officer's speed when rolling]/ [1+(Distance the officer was initially behind you/Distance car traveled until the officer was on bumper)]

According to this [officer stated lane #1 @ 79 mph]/ [1+(officer reported distance "CHP VEH behind" 300ft or 0.056 of a mile/officer reported in notes that he paced me for 1/4 of a mile and observed me for 1/2 of a mile meaning it took 1/4 of a mile to catch up to my bumper)]

When you calculate it out it equals 64.542 mph ~65 mph. So when bearing down to catch up his speedometer gave a higher reading than mine. And he used this speed as the "Speed Approx." on the ticket.

Anyone have any objections please do reply, and I don't mind anyone telling me I am making a fool out of myself (I have a feeling That Guy will!:encouragement:). Also is this correct, I got it from nolo.com under "Pacing Formula."