My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: CA
Hello Experts,
I needed you feedback on my situation. I am planning to file a TBD. I got a red light violation VC 21453 (c) (on left turn on red arrow) when a cop pulled me over at a intersection. I was driving my friend’s car and I had my car insurance but could not locate where I kept it in his car. So he also added violation VC 16028(a). When I mentioned that I do have car insurance, he said that you will have to mail the copy to get it off the ticket. Will there be any issues if I send the copy over or will it be taken off?
Regarding my red light violation VC 21453(c), I did not run the light and entered the intersection when the light had just turned yellow. By the time I I was 1/2 or 2/3 way into the intersection the light turned red. The cop mentioned that I ran the red light and when I mentioned that I am pretty sure the light was yellow, he said that the light on the perpendicular road had already turned green while I was still inside the intersection.
My defense is that I already entered the intersection when the light was still yellow. Besides the intersection is a big intersection (3 lanes at the closest perpendicular road and 2 lanes on the road where I was finishing my turn). On the ticket my speed is listed as >15 MPH and I was indeed at the same speed around 15/16 MPH. The traffic condition was listed as Heavy on the ticket. Given the above scenario, If I would have ran the red light and entered the intersection after the light turned red, I would have gotten into a tangle with the cars approaching from the perpendicular roads since with my speed and the length of the intersection, I would not have completed the turn without being involved in an accident. Also, my speed suggests that I was driving safely and normally and not trying to beat the red light.
One more thing is that I was coming out of a shopping complex where, just before the light, on the right hand side there was fire vehicle/paramedic vehicle parked so I proceeded with utmost caution scanning the road to see if any other fire or paramedic vehicle is approaching hence I would have been slow completing my turn and thats when the officer would have seen that the perpendicular light turned green while I was still inside the intersection. But I did enter the intersection when the light was yellow.
Do you think my defense is solid to clear my ticket? I have not had any tickets in my 10 years of driving history.
Red Light Violation in California
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07-27-2011, 06:27 PMbpatRed Light Violation in California
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07-27-2011, 07:26 PMThat GuyRe: Red Light Violation Feedback NeededYou should be OK with mailing it but you'd be better off contacting the court clerk and confirming that with them.Quote:
Quoting bpat
So how do you feel about red light cameras! :DQuote:
Quoting bpat
Not necessarily true... Traffic signals (and especially those located on wide intersections) will likely utilize what is referred to as an "all red" signal where the signal, and after it terminated the yellow phase and goes into red, it stays at red for a few seconds for ALL directions to allow for slow drivers (or those who entered late) to cler the intersection prior to showing a green for that direction.Quote:
Quoting bpat
Driving slow is not necessarily always safe.Quote:
Quoting bpat
I wouldn't call it "solid"... "has potential" is probably more accurate.Quote:
Quoting bpat
What you need to do is to contact the public works department (or whatever it is called in the city where this occurred) and request a copy of the traffic and engineering report for that intersection/signal. From that you should be able to establish yellow phase timing, all red phase timing... etc, and that might help you solidify your defense. -
07-27-2011, 07:38 PMbpatRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
So how do you feel about red light cameras! :D
>> It was not a camera violation. A cop pulled me over. Also, when I mentioned that I am sure it was yellow, he mentioned that the perpendicular lights were green when I was still in the intersection. This is no way verifies that I did not enter the intersection when the light was yellow.
Driving slow is not necessarily always safe.
>> I agree. But in my case, event though the fire engine was parked in the complex and not emergency lights were ON, I had to make sure that there were no emergency vehicles approaching the intersection and the safest and reasonable approach was to scan and make the turn slowly. Infact, It was not that I was really slow, I was at a reasonable speed. Also, while at the signal, I saw there were some vehicles a little further behind me and I had to decide whether to go though as I still had the right of way (yellow signal) or to wait and possibly congest the internal road which could have made it for any emergency vehicles to go through. -
07-27-2011, 07:57 PMThat GuyRe: Red Light Violation Feedback NeededI realize that. My point was that this is a case that will boil down to what the officer claims he saw, versus what you claim you saw. Alternatively, and had this intersection been equipped with a red light camera, then it would be safe to assume that if you entered the intersection on yellow, the camera would not have taken a picture, and a citation would not have been issued! And with all the recent press about the legality and benefit of red light cameras (at least in the city of Los Angeles), I was just curious to find out how you felt about red light cameras.Quote:
Quoting bpat
Is it possible that he mentioned that in addition to him seeing the light turn red before you entered? Where was he located at the time you turned?Quote:
Quoting bpat
Edited to Add: Whether that statement will carry any weight or not will ultimately depend on the duration of the "all red" phase. So get that report, scan it, upload a copy of it to an image hosting website, and post a link here for us to review it.... And we'll see what we can find out!
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Quoting bpat
Frankly, I would not mention either of those matters in that they might suggest that you were not being attentive to what phase the light was showing when you entered the intersection. But that's just my opinion!Quote:
Quoting bpat
Also, I am not sure what, if anything, you stated to the officer during the stop, but you should keep in mind that those statements can also be used to incriminate you. -
07-27-2011, 08:22 PMbpatRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
Thanks for your responses
Is it possible that he mentioned that in addition to him seeing the light turn red before you entered? Where was he located at the time you turned?
>> He just said that you ran a red light and when I mentioned that I am sure it was yellow, he said that the light on the perpendicular road was green. For his conversation, I do not remember him saying definately that saw me entering the entersection on a red light. Also, I was scanning left and right while I was turning and am not sure where the cop was. I think he was on my right and on the lane where I would be completing my turn but to the far right and hence I might not have seen him. The other possibility is that he would have come from behind me. But that is a rare possibility because as soon as I completed my turn, I saw him behind me in a few seconds. The cop stopped me after I made another right turn on another intersection.
Also, My wife was in the car at that time and she also saw that I entered the intersection when the light was yellow and that I was driving at normal spped and there was no panic inside the car nor on the road. She only realized what happened when I stopped the car after making the right turn when she asked why I stopped. AT that I said that we are being pulled over by the cop. Will I be able to include her as my witness?
Frankly, I would not mention either of those matters in that they might suggest that you were not being attentive to what phase the light was showing when you entered the intersection. But that's just my opinion!
>> I was looking at he signal when I entered the intersection but because of the fire engine situation, I was cautious and hence could have taken extra second to complete my turn and thats what the cop would have seen when he saw me still inside the interscation when the perpendicular lights turned green. That was the reason why I wnated to mention it since it played a part in the whole incident. Do you still think that I should atleast mention that the fire engine was present which in turn resulted in the above mentioned response.
Also, I am not sure what, if anything, you stated to the officer during the stop, but you should keep in mind that those statements can also be used to incriminate you.
>> My only interaction with him was he sayign that it was a red light violatio nand me saying that I am sure it was yellow and he mentioning the green signal on the perpendicular road.
Do you think whether I request for "Discovery Report" before filing the TBD? If I do not, at the moment, will I be able to request it if I am found guilty on TBD and before I go for court trial? -
07-28-2011, 02:11 AMThat GuyRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
I'm curious to know at approximately what time of day or night this happened?
Yes, you may... Though it should be noted that in light of the fact that she is your wife, it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to assume that the benefit of your being found not guilty, would naturally extend to her as well... Still, biased as she might be, her testimony would have to be allowed however, the trier of fact can then determine how much to weigh her credibility at.Quote:
Quoting bpat
No seriously... And with all due respect, here is the way I see it... Unless you can somehow establish that seeing fire trucks (or whatever else you saw during the time you were making your turn) was such a life changing experience, then the typical average person is not likely to remember what they were doing each and every moment of routine occurrence -making a left turn out of a shopping center-, simply because during those moments that you are describing now in such great detail, there was no indication whatsoever why you would need to remember and recite what you saw, which way you turned your neck at each and every moment as you exited that shopping center and completed your left turn...Quote:
Quoting bpat
I am not suggesting that you are being less than truthful. My only concern is that these statements that you are making here, may leave the wrong impression with the judge reading or hearing your case. But that's just one opinion. Others may feel differently! And you're free to plan your defense whichever way you see fit.
Whether you do request discovery before your TBD or after you TBD, you have the right to review the officer's declaration that he filed as his written testimony in your case. And that would likely give you much more insight into what the officer's testimony will consist of at a Trial De Novo (if you choose to go that far) than any items that you are likely to receive via discovery.Quote:
Quoting bpat
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07-28-2011, 07:58 AMbpatRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
I'm curious to know at approximately what time of day or night this happened?
>> It happened at around 8:00 PM.
No seriously... And with all due respect, here is the way I see it... Unless you can somehow establish that seeing fire trucks (or whatever else you saw during the time you were making your turn) was such a life changing experience
>> Sorry, I missed out this information before. As I mentioned, I was coming out of the shopping complex. When I mention that I saw a fire truck, it was not just before making the turn or while entering the intersection. It was well before I reached the lights. So I had ample time to analyze the situation. There was a stop sign about 150-200 ft before I reached the light. Thats when I saw the fire truck on the right as it was inside the complex. So I had ample time to see what was around and also approach the lights and focus on it.
I have uploaded the image of the intersection at http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...ersection.jpg/
Sorry for the naive paint job on it. The location marked red was where the fire truck was parked. Location marked blue was where the stop inside the complex was and after making a legal stop and proceeding slowly and stopping again to get a clear view before proceeding to the lights, I saw the fire truck. Location marked yellow is where the lights is.
Thanks for your response. I am waiting for the engineering/traffic report for the intersection form the public works department and will upload it as soon as I receive it. -
07-28-2011, 09:53 AMThat GuyRe: Red Light Violation Feedback NeededOK, so assuming that this all happened recently, and while it maybe true that the sun hasn't fully set at 8:00pm, it is still fairly dark one need not be directly in front of a traffic light to see what color/phase it is showing.Quote:
Quoting bpat
With that in mind, I can see that the traffic light pole is posted across from the exit to the shopping center (in that dirt patch located on the top right corner of the picture). If we assume that the officer was traveling in a northwesterly direction (from the general direction on the right side of the picture, towards the general direction on the left side of the picture, then not only is he likely to see the traffic signal lights facing his direction and controlling traffic movement from his side of the intersection, but depending on how close he was to the his limit line, at the time that you crossed your limit line, he is likely to be able to see at least a hue of color illuminating from the traffic signal head you're facing, or... Even in the likelihood that he was specifically looking at you as you crossed you limit line, he may have been able to see the reflection of your traffic signal light (what color it was showing) off of your own vehicle.
In other words, I don't see him as having a difficult time proving that he could easily determine (and not just guess) what color your traffic light was showing when you crossed the limit line. Add to that the possibility that based on his position at the time, he happened to also see that the traffic light controlling his direction of travel, had changed to green all while you are still within the intersection, his version of the story may suddenly become even more believable to the court.
I'm guessing this is going to be a difficult one to beat. But you're still free to put forth you best effort.
I will say the following, not as an attempt to discourage you from fighting it, but only in an effort to make you aware of the potential options at different stages in the process. Just keep in mind that your best opportunity at getting a fine reduction, happens to be at the arraignment and comes along with a "guilty plea" at that time. You can still request it after a TBD or after a trial, however the odds of receiving any relief inn the way of a "discount, become less at that juncture. Additionally, your only guaranteed shot at traffic school, also happens to be at the arraignment. Similarly, and while you an still request traffic school after a TBD loss of even after a TDN loss, the judge is at liberty to deny your request and he/she would be under no obligation to inform you of a reason for his/her denial,
You didn't even read what I posted above about "too many details", did you?Quote:
Quoting bpat
And based on this latest chunk of additional details, I really honestly do not see how the fire truck or any other emergency vehicle would have any impact on what happened AFTER you passed that group of vehicle and AFTER you passed the access driveway to the parking lot where they were all gathered.Quote:
Quoting bpat
As for you're attempt at being super extra cautious as you went through the intersection so as to be fully prepared to yield to another emergency vehicle arriving at that scene, I am sure you already know that although we have a duty to yield the right of way to an approaching emergency vehicle with lights glaring and sirens blaring, it is the emergency vehicle's driver who also has a duty to announce his presence or arrival at an intersection controlled by a traffic signal by way of using his lights and siren. So while I can understand and as I am sure many will appreciate you're being extra cautious as you prepared to enter the intersection, there was no need for you to continue at such a slow pace; in fact, and assuming that another emergency vehicle were to appear out of nowhere one you've made entry into the intersection, it would benefit you more to try and get out of there in as time efficient a manner as you can do safely...
In summary:
I see no relevance between the fire truck (or any other emergency vehicle present nearby) and whether you entered on yellow or entered on red;
I see no need for you to have been so cautious and slow while entering and traversing
through the intersection in spite of the fact that you had heard no siren and seen no lights;
I see no need for you to tell the long winded, over detailed synopsis of where you looked at each and every moment as you proceeded through the intersection, or which way you turned your head as you completed the turn...
And lastly, I think this will mainly depend on the officer's location and vantage point at the time you crossed the limit line and whether he can establish beyond a reasonable doubt that the light was red when you cross into the intersection. You may want to make a discovery request including but not limited to requesting a copy of his notes but only to see if he had made any notations as to an exact location at the time that he claims to have witnessed the alleged violation.
Well, we can still review that in an attempt to establish the legality of general standards such as the yellow phase and its duration relative to the posted approach speed limit on that roadway. Typically, the protected yellow turn yellow time is set at 3 seconds (with a variety of an 'all red" timing cycle)... But we'll wait and see what the report will say.Quote:
Quoting bpat
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07-28-2011, 10:34 AMbpatRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
Thanks for the detailed response.
OK, so assuming that this all happened recently, and while it maybe true that the sun hasn't fully set at 8:00pm, it is still fairly dark one need not be directly in front of a traffic light to see what color/phase it is showing.
>> I looked up the ticket again and saw the exact time was 19:29. And it was very bright as the sun sets around 8:30 - 8:45 around this time of the year.
I will wait for the engineering/traffic report and might also request the discovery to get the relevant details. Is their anything I need to be aware of or use as a defense in my case? -
07-28-2011, 10:50 AMThat GuyRe: Red Light Violation Feedback NeededOK, so go back to the location (if you're close by) an hour or so before sunset, use the cross walk to get over to where the dirt patch/traffic light is erected/that train station symbol is (close to the top of the picture) and take a look at whether you can determine which phase the traffic light is in by looking in the general direction of the exit from the shopping center. That is assuming this was close to the location where he will testify he was.Quote:
Quoting bpat
Also, let me make one more comment regarding the length of your presentation and/or testimony during a trial. Typically, the court's time is extremely limited by virtue of the number of cases scheduled on calendar each and every day. That would suggest that if you have a long statement to make, the judge will likely find it necessary to cut you off and say "OK, I've heard enough"... Now, whether you've made your point at that point or not, who knows... So it would be in your best interest to be brief, concise and to the point.
If you can determine with any certainty the officer's location at the time you crossed the limit line, that will, more likely than not, be the one single way for you to attempt to raise any doubt as to his ability to determine with any certainty whether a violation was committed or not. if he happened to state an exact location in his notes, that might be a good start; if he didn't then you will likely hear him claim a good vantage point from his location.Quote:
Quoting bpat
You might find a possible argument through a review of the engineering report in the way the traffic signal is set up, but for now, that is a shot in the dark and I would expect everything to be legit until it can be determined that it is not! -
07-28-2011, 10:57 AMbpatRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
Also, let me make one more comment regarding the length of your presentation and/or testimony during a trial. Typically, the court's time is extremely limited by virtue of the number of cases scheduled on calendar each and every day.
>> Yes, excatly the reason why I am putting out everything I had got on my mind so that I can distinguish between relevant and non-relevant information that I can put it down on my written declaration or can use in court.
OK, so go back to the location (if you're close by) an hour or so before sunset, use the cross walk to get over to where the dirt patch/traffic light is erected/that train station symbol is (close to the top of the picture) and take a look at whether you can determine which phase the traffic light is in by looking in the general direction of the exit from the shopping center.
>> Unfortunately, I stay about 2 hours from this place but will try to go one of these weekends to get more information and pictures. -
07-28-2011, 10:58 AMThat GuyRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
By the way.. Are you sure that signal displays a red turn arrow for that left turn?
ETA: Never mind... It is an arrow --> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=rio+rd...,48.95,,1,-1.5 -
07-28-2011, 11:24 AMbpatRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
It is the intersection of Crossroad Blvd and Rio rd. I was lookat the street view from where the bus stop is. Do you think the signal light is visibal from there or only the perpendicular lights are visible? I was coming from the left where there is a red car standing at the light ahead of a metallic grey car in the street view.
Also, In the street view, I see a solid red but not a red arrow at tthe lights. Could the photo be old and the lights have changed? I do think it was red arrow but could be wrong. Will the traffic/engineering report mention the type of light or will I have to personally go and check it? -
07-28-2011, 11:37 AMThat GuyRe: Red Light Violation Feedback NeededIt would be nearly impossible to tell from a 2 dimensional view.Quote:
Quoting bpat
The engineering report will give an accurate description of the current set up.Quote:
Quoting bpat
Edited to add: Actually maybe not so impossible... Here is the view of the signal heads from the #2 lane if he was waiting at the limit line.Quote:
Quoting That Guy
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07-28-2011, 03:45 PMbpatRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
Hi That Guy,
I called the public works department and asked for the information. The repesentative is going to send the information for type of signal and phase timings. She mentioned over the phone that the timings are as follows
Yellow: 3 sec
All red: 1 sec
Green: min 4 sec
Intersection length: around 75 - 100 ft.
Type of singal (she was not sure): Overhead (circular Red) and the one on the far left (could also be circular Red or red arrow. She was not sure).
Given this information and with the speed I was making the turn, can I make a case that if I made an illegal left turn, I would have had traffic coming on to me since I would have not made it across in time?
Also, I received a VC 21543(c) violation which states
"A driver facing a steady red arrow signal shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, shall stop at a clearly marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication permitting movement is shown."
If it is determined that the signal is witout red arrow and just circular red, does that mean anything?
Does my conversation with the public works representative remain confidential or is it shared with authorities? -
07-28-2011, 04:29 PMThat GuyRe: Red Light Violation Feedback NeededAs I have stated above, that is pretty standard for a protected left turn arrow. So no dice there.Quote:
Quoting bpat
It is my understanding that the "all red" phase is simply a bonus, meaning there is no statutory requirement for it.Quote:
Quoting bpat
Not relevant. (But incredibly short).Quote:
Quoting bpat
Not going to help much with it being a "range", but there are other challenges that would prohibit an accurate calculation.Quote:
Quoting bpat
Well, we'll find out when you get the report.Quote:
Quoting bpat
Well, see the problem is (and lets just use your version of the story) you say you entered on yellow, but at which point during that 3 second yellow phase did you actually make entry? And if you are able to determine that specific moment in time when you entered the intersection/crossed the limit line with any degree of certainty, then you would not have to calculate much to come up with a reason for a dismissal; you can simply present that evidence as a way to refute the officer's testimony that you entered on red. Case dismissed!Quote:
Quoting bpat
Typically when fighting a red light citation, one would hope for a shorter than minimum yellow phase (one that does not comply with the minimum recommendations)... In this case, I was actually hoping for a longer yellow and an even longer red. And that way a rough estimate on how long it would take to make the turn might imply that the other signal could not have shown a green while you were inside the intersection. And hence my reference when I stated "we'll wait for the report and figure that out" (or words to that effect).
*IF* it is determined that you were not facing any red arrows, then surely, you can argue that you did not violate VC 21453(c)... And it should in theory, get you a dismissal.Quote:
Quoting bpat
That sure does look like a circular red but don;t get too excited until you receive the report.
And even if it is, why would that concern you in the least bit?Quote:
Quoting bpat
You are well within your rights to explore any avenue that might lead you towards a plausible defense. The information you requested and received or are about to receive, could have been part of a discovery request that you would have put through. You chose to get it on your own instead.
Also, if you are concerned about the officer finding out what you're up to, you can rest assured that he wouldn't care the last bit and his testimony and evidence will not change in the slightest.
Having said all that, I highly doubt the lady you spoke to would take it upon herself to contact the police agency in your town to report "a caller who's inquiring about traffic light information to defend against his citation". In fact, if she spoke to you, you can bet that she did so as part of her daily duty as an employee of the public agency that employs her; (your tax dollars at work)!!! -
07-28-2011, 04:53 PMbpatRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
Well, see the problem is (and lets just use your version of the story) you say you entered on yellow, but at which point during that 3 second yellow phase did you actually make entry? And if you are able to determine that specific moment in time when you entered the intersection/crossed the limit line with any degree of certainty, then you would not have to calculate much to come up with a reason for a dismissal; you can simply present that evidence as a way to refute the officer's testimony that you entered on red. Case dismissed!
>> Even if say I entered the intersection with say 1 sec on yellow remaining + 1 sec of all-red + 1 sec of green (on the perpendicular road) and if I was going at 17 MPH (>15 MPH as mentioend on the ticket), I would have covered (5280 ft * 17)/3600 = 24.9 ft/sec. i.e approx 75 ft in 3 secs. If the intersection is greater than 75 ft (which I think it definately is) then even after making a legal turn, I would not have completed my turn before the perpendicular light turned green and 1 sec had elapsed.
I will definately wait for the report and calculate using the final numbers. Also, one more issue is that I asked for the length of the intersection but the representative said that they do not have it on file and I will have to roughly calculate using google maps and rulers. Will this be admissible in court or through a Trial by Written Declaration? Also when I looked on the google map, the inner left turn lane circumference looks to be around more than 80ft? Any better way to calculate it?
And even if it is, why would that concern you in the least bit?
>> No, I am not worried about the officer finding it out. Just that I am a bit nervous since this is a first CA VC violation I ever received and want to make sure what all things I need to keep track of so that I can answer it correctly. -
07-28-2011, 05:30 PMThat GuyRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
Once again... Are you even reading what I am posting
1) That is a BIG if right there!!!Quote:
Quoting bpat
2) Problem is, you "IF" is a hypothetical. And you don't win cases on hypotheticals, you win them based on FACTS.
3) Your "IF say I entered on yellow" versus the sworn officer's testimony the "defendant entered the intersection/crossed the limit line on red" means ZIPPITY DOODAH ZILCH!
4) And once again, you're getting into an area that is not likely to be given much leeway by the judge, only this time he won't cut you off because you're taking too long; instead, he'll cut you off because you're not likely to prove much or refute much by going there.
Nobody cares at what point in time during the process you completed your turn. The code section you were cited for prohibits entering the intersection when the trsffic light is showing a red indication. PERIOD!Quote:
Quoting bpat
Nope, not likely!Quote:
Quoting bpat
Neither your original estimate nor your better way of calculating it will mean much!Quote:
Quoting bpat
Huh?Quote:
Quoting bpat
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07-28-2011, 05:55 PMbpatRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
2) Problem is, you "IF" is a hypothetical. And you don't win cases on hypotheticals, you win them based on FACTS.
>> Thanks That Guy. I understand I am making my argument in a wrong way (hypotheticals) where I should be basing my argument only on facts. I will wait for the paper work to arrive and then upload it. It would be great if you can review it. -
07-28-2011, 08:24 PMbruinPERe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
Not really on topic, but just wanted to chime in regarding the Min Green.
The min green exists for when there's very few vehicles. Do you really want to wait for more than 4 sec (green) + 3 sec (yellow) for a single left-turning car? -
07-29-2011, 01:04 PMThat GuyRe: Red Light Violation Feedback NeededAaahhhh, yes... Makes total sense!Quote:
Quoting bruinPE
Thanks bruin... but now that you're here, maybe you can briefly touch on whether it is possible to have a circular red on the same signal head that has a green arrow, and maybe elaborate briefly on why that type of set up would be used! -
07-30-2011, 11:00 AMbruinPERe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
I'm going to assume that this is for a fully protected left-turn phase with a three bulb vehicle head (MUTCD CA 2010 Section 4D.06 Standard B.2). It is possible for a vehicle head to have a circular red, yellow arrow, and green arrow as long as the circular red is not visible to the through lanes or is properly signed. However, it's not a typical setup in most cities that I have seen.
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08-01-2011, 08:32 AMThat GuyRe: Red Light Violation Feedback NeededSo then it would follow that VC 21453(c) really wouldn't be an applicable citation!Quote:
Quoting bruinPE
21453(c) A driver facing a steady red arrow signal shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, shall stop at a clearly marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication permitting movement is shown. -
08-01-2011, 06:54 PMbruinPERe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
Wouldn't it just be 21453 (a) then?
21453. (a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b).
(b) Except when a sign is in place prohibiting a turn, a driver, after stopping as required by subdivision (a), facing a steady circular red signal, may turn right, or turn left from a one-way street onto a one-way street. A driver making that turn shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to any vehicle that has approached or is approaching so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard to the driver, and shall continue to yield the right-of-way to that vehicle until the driver can proceed with reasonable safety. -
08-02-2011, 09:07 PMSpeedy GonzalezRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
So is there a video of the incident? Many of the camera setups in California record the previous 10-15 seconds prior to snapping the picture and 10-15 seconds after the picture is snapped. If it exists, it will be something you can use to prove your case.
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08-02-2011, 09:21 PMbpatRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
Thanks Speedy Gonzalez. This was not a camera ticket. I was pulled over by a cop.
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08-02-2011, 09:57 PMThat GuyRe: Red Light Violation Feedback NeededExactly... If this does indeed prove to be the case (that this traffic light utilizes a circular red instead of a red arrow) then the officer SHOULD have cited bpat for 21453(a) -instead of- 21453(c).Quote:
Quoting bruinPE
A simple oversight by the officer, but if it is to be corrected, it must be corrected prior to the arraignment with the officer completing, filing (in court) and mailing a copy of a Notice of Correction - Form TR-100 to the defendant along with proof of service form.
bpat, if it is not corrected (meaning if you do not receive a Notice of Correction from the officer, then you can try the following in this order:
A) Appear at the arraignment, present a copy of the engineering report showing that this particular signal head, utilizes a circular red instead on a red arrow, argue that subsection (c) is not applicable & accordingly the citation is defective on its face, and the case should be dismissed.
.
Now, it is likely that the judge is not going to accept that argument without the officer being present, at which point you would have to opt for choice (B) which is to enter a plea of "not guilty" and request. a trial or simply put in a request for a TBD (and yes, there is a great likelihood that you will having to post bail equal to the fine amount at this point (which, assuming the citation is dismissed, it will be refunded to you 6-8 weeks after the verdict)).
In your TBD, or at your trial, your argument would simply be "I was cited for violating the direction of a red arrow, where in actuality, I was facing a circular red, & here is the engineering report to confirm that fact. Since the element of the charge with which I was cited (i.e. "A driver facing a steady red arrow signal shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow") cannot be proven by the prosecution, the citation should be dismissed".
Again, all of this is dependent upon the likelihood that the engineering report will specifically reference the type of red indicator used there. If it doesn't, (and since I highly doubt that Google Street view images would ft the bill) then you're only hope would be to take a drive out there to take pictures (and you should take them from angles that also show the street name signs as a means to lay the proper foundation for them). -
10-19-2011, 05:56 PMbpatRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
Hi That Guy,
Thanks for providing your feedback on my case. The current status is as follows:
1) I have already paid the bail amount and had requested "Trial by Declaration".
2) I have received the paperwork (Form TR-205) which i have to complete and submit before 10/25/2011.
3) I have a few back and forth with the county's Department of Public Works before I finally obtained the required Traffic signal report (including the type of traffic light) and the photographs taken by the department for the intersection that supports their description of signal type.
I have uploaded the pictures. Sorry, I have smudged the image to hide the personal information. You can have a look at the following
1) The Courtesy Notice for the traffic violation: http://imageshack.us/f/412/noticefinal.jpg/
2) The cover letter from the Department of Public Works: http://imageshack.us/f/641/coverletterfinal.jpg/
3) Additional Photos provided by the department (Sorry, the photos are scanned in gray scale so its difficult to figure out the signal color. The original photos are color. You can skip the photos if required. It is similar to what we saw on Google street view.) :
http://imageshack.us/f/403/photo1final.jpg/<br>
http://imageshack.us/f/829/photo2final.jpg/<br>
http://imageshack.us/f/26/photo3final.jpg/<br>
http://imageshack.us/f/829/photo4final.jpg/
<br>
Given the above situation, I have the following questions
1) Since I am cited for VC21453(C) Red Arrow violation and since the report shows that there is no Red arrow at the intersection, I am going to argue the case as you mentioned in your previous message. Do you think I would need anything else as an evidence other than what I have currently?
2) I am also cited for VC16028(A) Fail to provide Evidence of Financial Responsibility (Proof of Insurance violation). I was driving my friend's car and his glove box would not open at that time for me to show the officer the proof of insurance. I have submitted the proof with the bail amount I sent. In the Statement of Fact should I also be contesting this violation? Should I include the details of this violation and also attach the insurance proof? Should I include description for both violations in the same Statement of facts or should I write 2 separate ones?
3) I had seen a template letter from someone who had a similar case and for whom you reviewed the letter. I am planning to use the same template as this is my first correspondence with a court authority. I will prepare the draft for my case. Will you be able to please review it to see if the language and the format are correct?
Thanks. -
10-19-2011, 09:56 PMThat GuyRe: Red Light Violation Feedback NeededNot a problem, Pops...Quote:
Quoting bpat
That, right there along with the attached photos, should prove sufficient for an argument that 21453(c) is inapplicable in this case. And I see no reason why a dismissal would not be granted.Quote:
Quoting bpat
You'll have to submit the color photos along with your declaration. Now, although the evidence you submit will be returned to you after the case is decided, it would be in your best interest to get and keep copies (in color) of the color photos for your own record. This will not be the first time that either the USPS or the court happened to lose paperwork so better safe than sorry. Also, I assume you're mailing it as opposed to submitting it in person, and if so, your entire TBD paperwork should be mailed to the court "Certified Mail + Return Receipt Requested" that way you know when it was received and by whom. Again, better safe than sorry.Quote:
Quoting bpat
I think you got it straight!Quote:
Quoting bpat
I always suggest it would be best to find an alternative plan, but in this case, the only alternative we could come up with through our long discussion, is your word against the officer's. We both know how that won't fly so its up to you to include it as a "#2" or leave it out altogether.Quote:
Quoting bpat
I would shy away from cluttering your declaration with material that is not needed. But again your case, proceed as you feel comfortable. My advice would be to simply either check online or contact the court for confirmation that this part was handled already. If it has been handled, I would simply include a one line comment at the end indicating that "Proof of correction for the VC 16028(a) violation was submitted to the court and the related violation as indicated on the citation was dismissed by the clerk" (or words to that effect). Hopefully you were also able to submit an additional $25 along with the bail amount to cover the administrative fee required for the dismissal of the 16028(a) violation.Quote:
Quoting bpat
Perfect example of why you should keep it as simple as possible...Quote:
Quoting bpat
Do Not.
Under Any Circumstances.
Submit Two Separate Statements.
Judges have a lot on their minds and are often confused by the simplest tasks... Well, may be not often, but you catch my drift.
Well, get on it Pops... The 25h is quickly approaching. You still have to pack it and mail it all before Friday to ensure the court will get it on or before Tuesday!Quote:
Quoting bpat
I will try my best!Quote:
Quoting bpat
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10-19-2011, 10:25 PMbpatRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
I would shy away from cluttering your declaration with material that is not needed. But again your case, proceed as you feel comfortable. My advice would be to simply either check online or contact the court for confirmation that this part was handled already. If it has been handled, I would simply include a one line comment at the end indicating that "Proof of correction for the VC 16028(a) violation was submitted to the court and the related violation as indicated on the citation was dismissed by the clerk" (or words to that effect). Hopefully you were also able to submit an additional $25 along with the bail amount to cover the administrative fee required for the dismissal of the 16028(a) violation.
>> I had asked the clerk on the phone about the proof of insurance and he mentioned that the commissioner looking over the case will make the decision. I did that before sending the bail amount. I will check back with a clerk tomorrow. But if, what he mentioned is the case, should I just include the line "Proof of correction for the VC 16028(a) violation was submitted to the court." Or do I need to add anything more?
Also, the clerk mentioned to post just the bail amount. He did not ask me to send separate $25 check. In this case, what should I be doing? Will they cut it from the bail amount if the case is dismissed or will I have to send it to them separately?
I will have the Statement of Facts ready by tonight and can upload it by tomorrow. Thanks for your time.
And yes, I sent my communication through certified mail with the return receipt confirmation option and also made copies of everything. -
10-19-2011, 10:49 PMquirkyquarkRe: Red Light Violation Feedback NeededAfter the 2010 change in VC 40519 regarding written not guilty pleas ("A plea of not guilty under this section must be made in court at the arraignment"), we can assume that you haven't plead until you submit your TBD.Quote:
Quoting That Guy
Since this is about an error on the face of the ticket and bpat has not yet plead not guilty, his declaration effectively becomes a demurrer. Technically, it's the language of the alleged violation that's the operative part, not the code section -- so if the ticket said "21453(c) - ran red light", that's enough for a judge to deny the demurrer. Realistically, whoever's considering the TBD isn't going to think about it in these terms and it's a 50-50 chance -- either (a) he/she rubber stamps a "guilty" or thinks "it's only a typo -- guilty" OR (b) he/she cares about technicalities, reads the declaration and immediately dismisses it.
bpat: you also mentioned that the cop initially said that he saw a red light while yours was still yellow. If your perception is true, and you can get a picture/video from some angle that shows the lights at one or more signals unsynchronized, you have a guaranteed win. -
10-19-2011, 11:35 PMbpatRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
Thanks for your input quirkyquark.
"so if the ticket said "21453(c) - ran red light", that's enough for a judge to deny the demurrer."
>> The ticket says "VC 21453(C) Red Arrow - Don't Enter Roadway." on the courtesy notice. Do you still think it would be 50-50? -
10-19-2011, 11:41 PMquirkyquarkRe: Red Light Violation Feedback NeededThe courtesy notice is irrelevant. It's what's on the ticket the cop gave you at the time he stopped you that matters. By way of explanation, as the name suggests, the "courtesy" notice has no relation to the law. The ticket though serves as a "complaint" which the law requires before criminal proceedings can commence against anyone.Quote:
Quoting bpat
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10-19-2011, 11:56 PMbpatRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
The ticket (Yellow citation) that the officer gave me says "VC 21453(c) Red Turn Arrow".
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10-20-2011, 01:37 AMbpatRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
Hi That Guy,
I have prepared the Statement of Facts. You can view it at http://imageshack.us/f/338/sofz.jpg/ . I will replace <xx_yy> in the Statement with the necessary information. I have a few questions
1) After taking a left on Rio Road, the office appeared behind my car but stopped me after I took a right on I-1S. In the Statement of Facts, I have just mentioned that after taking left on Rio Road and "After driving a few feet, I was stopped by an officer who issued me the citation." just to keep it short and simple and because the above did not seem relevant to the case. Is that OK?
2) I have worded the argument, you had mentioned to get the citation dismissed in TBD of a trial, in a different way. Let me know if that looks fine.
3) I have included "Proof of correction for the CVC 16028(a) violation was submitted to the court along with the bail amount." in the statement of facts. I will check with the clerk to see if this citation is dismissed by the clerk. If so, I will update it to the format you sent. If not, should this statement suffice?
4) In the form TR 205, I have to check the evidence that I want the court to consider in support of my case. A couple of options are a) photographs (specify total number) and h) others (specify). In my case, the report from the Department of Public works has 4 photographs of signal heads and 3 from Google street view. What should I check on this? Should I check a) photographs separately and specify 4 since Google photos might not be considered and then check h) others and specify "Traffic Engineering report" or should I just check h) others and specify "Traffic Engineering report from Department of Public Works including photographs of the intersection"?
Also, should I remove the Google street view pictures from the engineering report or send the whole packet as-is? If the packet is sent as-is, should the Google pictures be included in the count?
5) Another format of the statement of facts is http://imageshack.us/f/810/sofother.jpg/ . Its the same wordings but the relevant information is underlined as in the template I refereed. Should I do something like this or the one without the underline is better? -
10-20-2011, 03:16 AMquirkyquarkRe: Red Light Violation Feedback NeededPERFECT! The idea then is to not go all "legalese" in your TBD but weave the relevant text from the Penal Code about demurrers, etc. into your statement so that whoever reads it knows you're serious.Quote:
Quoting bpat
This post is an example of sorts, but you don't need to bother about how it fits into your declaration. Please post the TEXT of your statement of facts (or share it as a Google document) and I'll suggest a few insertions. -
10-20-2011, 06:31 AMThat GuyRe: Red Light Violation Feedback NeededWell, that section does not state that "submitting a TBD" is an exclusion to that requirement or that "submitting" a TBD is any different to "requesting" a TBD. If you're suggesting that the mere fact that submitting a form TR-205 is sufficient to be deemed an entry of plea (whereas requesting it isn't) , then pursuant to CRC 4.210(b)(3) and I quote:Quote:
Quoting quirkyquark
... a request must also be made by submitting a TR-205.Quote:
The defendant must file a Request for Trial by Written Declaration (form TR-205) with the clerk by the appearance date indicated on the Notice to Appear or the extended due date as provided in (2). The Request for Trial by Written Declaration (form TR-205) must be filed in addition to the defendant's written request for a trial by written declaration, unless the defendant's request was made on the election form.
Take it a step further, assuming that a request is only valid when signed by the defendant, then I'm not seeing a difference between submitting a signed form TR-205 requesting a TBD along with *a check for the bail amount* as opposed to submitting a signed form TR-205 wherein the defendant's statement of facts is included.
Wait, one more.... Just because a few people (wink-wink) don't believe that TBD is in fact reviewed by a judicial officer (rather than only glancing at it and tossing it aside) and they (wink-wink) don't believe that it can in fact result in a dismissal and instead, suggest that a simple "I stand by my plea of not guilty" will suffice, that does not mean that the plea entry only happens when the TBD is submitted. In fact that statement ("I stand by my plea of not guilty") is in and of itself an indication that the plea entry has already occurred at some point in time in the past and certainly before the time the TBD is submitted...
One more, a request for a TBD is not made in front of the judge. Instead, it is made to the clerk either by mail or in person. Fact is, the entire procedure is designed with the idea that a court appearance in not required. And if the language that you quoted were to apply to the TBD/TDN process, that first possible opportunity that a defendant has to enter a plea in open court would be at the point when the defendant appears for the TDN. And yet I have never head/seen that a TDN is stated by the judge asking you to enter a plea. typically, he's asking if the witnesses have been sworn in and subsequently asking the officer to begin!
My guess, and even without a specific statement pleading not guilty, the fact that you're submitting the bail without an actual plea, in theory, a plea of "not guilty" is entered on your behalf and your case is scheduled for a trial - by declaration. This would be similar to a case where the defendant refuses to enter a plea, the judge will then enter a plea of "not guilty" on his/her behalf and the case is scheduled for a trial.
Then again, maybe you'e seeing something else that I am completely missing! In which case, I trust you will let me know!
It is obvious that until yesterday evening, we could not establish with any reasonable certainty, whether the light was a circular red or a red arrow (I learned the hard way not to trust in Google-Maps). So a demurrer would not have been an option until this time.Quote:
Quoting quirkyquark
Considering the fact that the bpat has submitted a request for a TBD, received and extension, posted bail, and now has only 5 days to submit his declaration, and on the "assumption" that he has not already entered a plea by submitting his request for a TBD and posting bail, and even if he were to contact the court and assuming that they would agree to his withdrawing his request for a TBD and scheduling a court appearance, it is my opinion that he might not get an arraignment date until at least a month from now, thereby delaying the possible date of such demurrer by that amount of time as well...
Even with that, I'm not sure a demurrer offers a greater guatantee of success over a TBD simply because this is an infraction... If this had been a misdemeanor, filed by the District Attorney's office where the Deputy District Attorney attending the arraignment is fully aware of the circumstances of the case, and he/she is served a copy of the demurrer before hand, and is therefore able to voice any possible objections to the demurrer then I might agree that the defendant can present it, the DDA will respond, and the judge will rule. With this being an infraction, and with the likelihood that a prosecuting attorney will not be present, I'm not sure the average traffic court commissioner would entertain the idea of a dismissal on a demurrer after only hearing one of two possible descriptions of the circumstances, instead, it is my opinion that most judicial officers would prefer to have the officer there to justify his reason for citing one section over the other (even in a case like this one where the evidence is unquestionable).
Q, you might have missed the part where OP mentioned that he is quite a distance away from the location of the alleged violation. So simply driving by to record a video is not likely to happen in the next few days. Even if it were and while there are in fact 3 signal heads, all three are located on a single upright/signal arm (with no other signal pole in sight) it would not matter whether they are wired in series (off of one wiring run) or in parallel (three separate runs, one for each lighthead) because all would be connected to the same timing circuit! As you can see from the Google view above, there is not that great a distance between one and the other so I'm not sure if any timing difference (due to any immeasurable difference in resistance with that short of a distance between them) will be noticeable with the naked eye... So we're back to square one where the officer claims the light was red, and the defendant claims the light was yellow!Quote:
Quoting quirkyquark
Of course, as I stated in my last reply, if bpat feels this second possibility is worth exploring, it is his option take the drive. make the video and review it, that is ultimately his decision not mine. Similarly, if he feels a demurrer is worth the shot, then by all means, contact the court to see what options he has at this point in time, let us know and we'll go from there!
While I might agree that it might be too technical of a technicality to a judicial officer who's reviewing the TBD, I really am not seeing how it stands any better chance of being any less technical by way of a demurrer versus a TBD.
I, unlike others here (wink-wink) still have as much faith in a TBD as I do in a trial. And if past history is indicative of future results (that wouldn't work in the stock market though), then here is a similar case of "the (c) should have been an (a)" citation which was, in fact, dismissed at the TBD level. -
10-20-2011, 08:21 AMquirkyquarkRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
TG, it appears you missed my point entirely. I'm NOT suggesting that bpat somehow try to get an actual arraignment at this stage and then demur. I am suggesting that his written declaration make it clear that it is, in part, a demurrer.
Now, this distinction may only matter in preserving the argument for appellate review, but I think it's important because you can only object to facial defects on the pleading via a demurrer and if you don't, these objections are deemed waived (PC 1012). I think you'll agree that your approach, in a TBD, is implicitly a motion to dismiss based on an error on the citation. In a court trial, if made after the officer's testimony, it would be a PC 1118.1 motion and be perfectly valid. In the TBD context though, depending on whether he thinks a plea has already been made, the judge is technically free to deny the "motion for dismissal" as being untimely.
I would argue that the declaration is effectively equivalent to an arraignment and trial. Nothing prevents you from saying "I'm guilty. Here are my mitigating excuses. Please spank me lightly." The informal request and bail serve the same purpose they do in VC 40519 -- an intention to plead not guilty, and guaranteeing an appearance, which in this context would be a submission of the TBD.
Anyway, I digress. My idea is simply for the OP to cover ALL the bases in his written declaration and exploit the grey area a TBD resides in by making it a beast with many heads. To the "its only a typo judge", the additional language suggests that c-vs-a is not just a harmless error he can ignore; to the "rubber stamping judge", it gives food for thought; to the "dot-i's-and-cross-t's judge" who would dismiss anyway, it's not much help; to the "stickler for procedure judge", it's a procedurally valid argument for dismissal. Better safe than sorry!
Yes, I just skimmed through the previous posts so I missed the fact that bpat is far away. That and the signal configuration you explained probably make the synchronization defense a non-starter. -
10-20-2011, 10:16 AMbpatRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
Hi That Guy,
Did you get a chance to review the statement of facts I uploaded and the questions I had?
Thanks. -
10-20-2011, 11:26 AMbpatRe: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed
Hi That Guy,
I spoke to the clerk about VCV 16028(a) proof of insurance and he said that they would not know if it was dismisseed until the TBD is complete and the commissioner has reviewed the case. He suggested that the line I included in the statement of facts about this violation should suffice but I should also attach the proof of insurance "Exhibit B" along with the statement of facts.
Regards.