15 Year Old Pregnant by 18 Year Old Boy

My question involves criminal law for the state of: Florida. My 15 yr old family member is in a relationship with a 18 yr old boy. She is now pregnant. Her boyfriend is wanting to be a part of the babys life but the family is concerned that if anybody finds out this girl is pregnant that the boy may be arrested and the girl may get taken away from her family by the state. Is that possible? Is the boy in trouble? Do you suggest keeping the father's identity a secret to protect him? Thank You in Advance for your time.

The boy could be in a lot of legal trouble. Florida has some of the strictest underage sex laws in the country, and they DO enforce these laws.

Nobody here is going to condone hiding the identity of someone who has committed such an offense. Besides, she will be asked to identify the father.

I agree with the feelings that it wont do any good for the father to be in jail when he could be helping out and being a hard working supportive father to the child.

Unfortunately, statutory rape can not be ignored and its a very serious criminal offense. The sex was not consensual.

Did the girl have some sort of fake ID or some way of deceiving the boy to make him believe she was older? ; some judges have taken that into consideration,

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Quoting ssnajohnson

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My question involves criminal law for the state of: Florida. My 15 yr old family member is in a relationship with a 18 yr old boy. She is now pregnant. Her boyfriend is wanting to be a part of the babys life but the family is concerned that if anybody finds out this girl is pregnant that the boy may be arrested and the girl may get taken away from her family by the state. Is that possible? Is the boy in trouble? Do you suggest keeping the father's identity a secret to protect him? Thank You in Advance for your time.

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given the age, the people at the hospital should be mandatory reporters of such crimes so unless she is going to have the child at home without the assistance of a medical professional, you cannot hide her pregnancy. Once that happens, the police and/or prosecutor should investigate to determine the identity of the father.

and wow, is this serious:

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Florida Statutes, Section 800.04 - Lewd or lascivious offenses committed upon or in the presence of persons less than 16 years of age

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(5) LEWD OR LASCIVIOUS MOLESTATION. --

(a) A person who intentionally touches in a lewd or lascivious manner the breasts, genitals, genital area, or buttocks, or the clothing covering them, of a person less than 16 years of age, or forces or entices a person under 16 years of age to so touch the perpetrator, commits lewd or lascivious molestation.

(b) An offender 18 years of age or older who commits lewd or lascivious molestation against a victim less than 12 years of age commits a life felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082(3)(a)4.

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2. An offender 18 years of age or older who commits lewd or lascivious molestation against a victim 12 years of age or older but less than 16 years of age

commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

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(c) For a felony of the second degree, by a term of imprisonment not exceeding 15 years.

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775.083 Fines.—
(1) A person who has been convicted of an offense other than a capital felony may be sentenced to pay a fine in addition to any punishment described in s. 775.082; when specifically authorized by statute, he or she may be sentenced to pay a fine in lieu of any punishment described in s. 775.082. A person who has been convicted of a noncriminal violation may be sentenced to pay a fine. Fines for designated crimes and for noncriminal violations shall not exceed:
(a) $15,000, when the conviction is of a life felony.
(b) $10,000, when the conviction is of a felony of the first or second degree.

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and I haven't looked at the several other possibilities of other crimes.

Is that possible? It is quite unlikely that the girl will be taken away from her family.

Is the boy in trouble? Oh, yes. He is in very serious trouble. And so he should be.

Do you suggest keeping the father's identity a secret to protect him? I rarely if ever suggest protecting a criminal from the consequences of his crime. He has committed a felony against your "family member". How can you possibly suggest that he should be "protected"?

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Quoting cbg

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Do you suggest keeping the father's identity a secret to protect him? I rarely if ever suggest protecting a criminal from the consequences of his crime. He has committed a felony against your "family member". How can you possibly suggest that he should be "protected"?

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It must be because he is such a nice boy, aside from the fact he is a child molester and all.

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Quoting DaveJames

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Did the girl have some sort of fake ID or some way of deceiving the boy to make him believe she was older? ; some judges have taken that into consideration,

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This is incorrect. Even if the little girl told the man that she was 18, ignorance of the child's age is not an affirmative defense. In fact, it is actually stated within the statute that it is not an affirmative defense.

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Quoting cyjeff

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This is incorrect. Even if the little girl told the man that she was 18, ignorance of the child's age is not an affirmative defense. In fact, it is actually stated within the statute that it is not an affirmative defense.

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Thanks for clearing that up Cyjeff

I had a feeling there is no defense at all. This is USA law and the case that comes to mind occurred in the UK when a man was set free for sex with an under age girl who dressed and acted much older. That judge also got quite a hammering from the public.

And in this case we also have an actual pregnancy not just a act of sex. A young girl risks serious physical injury having to carry out a child birth.

Thank you everyone for you advice. I am not wanting to "protect" this boy in ANY WAY!! However, my 15 yr old family thinks she's "in love", and she is the one who wants to protect him. yes I completely disagree with any sexual relations and do not condone in any way. With that being said, I don't think any child should have to be without a father. I, myself, had to grow up without a father. But this is all new to me and I haven't yet wrapped my head around the seriousness of the situation and maybe i do agree that he needs to be held responsible for his actions. He was adult enough to know the consequences of having sex with a minor!

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Quoting ssnajohnson

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Thank you everyone for you advice. I am not wanting to "protect" this boy in ANY WAY!! However, my 15 yr old family thinks she's "in love", and she is the one who wants to protect him.

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And you don't own a phone that can dial 911?

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yes I completely disagree with any sexual relations and do not condone in any way.

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Well, except that you KNOW that a child has been raped and aren't doing a damn thing about it. Inaction IS condoning it.

Your hands aren't clean here because a 15 year old child told you she didn't want you calling the cops.

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With that being said, I don't think any child should have to be without a father.

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And now comes the rationalizations as to why letting the rapist remain free is actually a GOOD thing.

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I, myself, had to grow up without a father. But this is all new to me and I haven't yet wrapped my head around the seriousness of the situation and maybe i do agree that he needs to be held responsible for his actions. He was adult enough to know the consequences of having sex with a minor!

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Call the police. NOW.

Hey CyJeff, you may criticise me all you want. I came to this site just seeking legal information and now I have it. Thank you to the people who actually answered my question. It is so easy to judge others. I'm sure that your not perfect. I am happily married with kids. I am just trying to help my family member. And I will do that in whatever way I see fit! No matter how many judgemental post you put! Thank you to all the others who actually answered the legality of this matter. In the judical system, feelings have no matter. So keep them to yourself!

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Quoting ssnajohnson

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Hey CyJeff, you may criticise me all you want. I came to this site just seeking legal information and now I have it. Thank you to the people who actually answered my question. It is so easy to judge others. I'm sure that your not perfect. I am happily married with kids. I am just trying to help my family member. And I will do that in whatever way I see fit! No matter how many judgemental post you put! Thank you to all the others who actually answered the legality of this matter. In the judical system, feelings have no matter. So keep them to yourself!

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I am not judging you.

I am telling you that you know a child has been raped and are doing NOTHING... That is not judgmental... it is simply fact.

Let me ask you this... if one of your children was being raped and a person knew about it, would YOU want that adult to call the police?

As to the rest, I think I can live with the slings and arrows from a person that is willing to look the other way when a child has been molested and raped.

Honestly, MINE is not the judgment you should worry about.

Find a friendly county judge to get them married.

http://marriage.about.com/cs/teenmarriage/a/teenus.htm

Florida: If a teen is under eighteen (18) years of age, but older than sixteen (16) years of age, a marriage license can be obtained with parental consent. If a parent has sole custody or the other parent is dead, the permission of one parent is sufficient. If a person is under the age of 16, the marriage license has to be issued by a county judge, with or without parental permission. If a minor's parents are both deceased and there is not an appointed guardian, he/she may apply for a marriage license. A minor teen who has been previously married may apply for a license. A minor who swears that they have a child or are expecting a baby, can apply for a license if the pregnancy has been verfied by a written statement from a licensed physician. A county court judge may at his/her discretion issue or not issue a license for them to marry.

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Quoting indeepdoodoo

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Find a friendly county judge to get them married.

http://marriage.about.com/cs/teenmarriage/a/teenus.htm

Florida: If a teen is under eighteen (18) years of age, but older than sixteen (16) years of age, a marriage license can be obtained with parental consent. If a parent has sole custody or the other parent is dead, the permission of one parent is sufficient. If a person is under the age of 16, the marriage license has to be issued by a county judge, with or without parental permission. If a minor's parents are both deceased and there is not an appointed guardian, he/she may apply for a marriage license. A minor teen who has been previously married may apply for a license. A minor who swears that they have a child or are expecting a baby, can apply for a license if the pregnancy has been verfied by a written statement from a licensed physician. A county court judge may at his/her discretion issue or not issue a license for them to marry.

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Yes, let's encourage the child molester to marry his victim.

Oh - wait. YOUR post hx...never mind.

Don't forget to read that last sentence. What do you think are the odds that a judge will:

a.) issue the marriage license or
b.) throw the child molester in jail?

well, given that it's Florida...I know which option I'd bet on.

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Quoting ssnajohnson

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My question involves criminal law for the state of: Florida. My 15 yr old family member is in a relationship with a 18 yr old boy. She is now pregnant. Her boyfriend is wanting to be a part of the babys life but the family is concerned that if anybody finds out this girl is pregnant that the boy may be arrested and the girl may get taken away from her family by the state. Is that possible? Is the boy in trouble? Do you suggest keeping the father's identity a secret to protect him? Thank You in Advance for your time.

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42 USC § 16911. Relevant definitions, including Amie Zyla expansion of sex offender definition and expanded inclusion of child predators
(5) Amie Zyla expansion of sex offense definition.
(C) Offenses involving consensual sexual conduct. An offense involving consensual sexual conduct is not a sex offense for the purposes of this title if the victim was an adult, unless the adult was under the custodial authority of the offender at the time of the offense, or if the victim was at least 13 years old and the offender was not more than 4 years older than the victim.

While this is Federal law under SORNA and not Florida law, it could be of use in examining the situation. By this definition the 18 year old would not be a rapist or child molester. Now considering the responses you have received from this forum would you want your 18 year old son to be treated like this for the rest of his life because of a poor choice of relationships?

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Quoting noprimenumbers

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While this is Federal law under SORNA and not Florida law, it could be of use in examining the situation. By this definition the 18 year old would not be a rapist or child molester. Now considering the responses you have received from this forum would you want your 18 year old son to be treated like this for the rest of his life because of a poor choice of relationships?

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well, unless this is being prosecuted under federal law, federal law is not relevant. Want to guess what law FLORIDA would prosecute the crime under?


and getting married after the crime does not remove the prior crime. Only after married would sex be legal. The boy can still be prosecuted for the crime prior to the marriage. If you want to try to argue something such that a spouse cannot be compelled to testicy against a spouse:

so? The evidence (proven fact the child was pregnant prior to the marriage and the DNA associating the father with the child) is all that is needed to prove sexual contact prior to marriage.

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Quoting indeepdoodoo

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Find a friendly county judge to get them married.

http://marriage.about.com/cs/teenmarriage/a/teenus.htm

Florida: If a teen is under eighteen (18) years of age, but older than sixteen (16) years of age, a marriage license can be obtained with parental consent. If a parent has sole custody or the other parent is dead, the permission of one parent is sufficient. If a person is under the age of 16, the marriage license has to be issued by a county judge, with or without parental permission. If a minor's parents are both deceased and there is not an appointed guardian, he/she may apply for a marriage license. A minor teen who has been previously married may apply for a license. A minor who swears that they have a child or are expecting a baby, can apply for a license if the pregnancy has been verfied by a written statement from a licensed physician. A county court judge may at his/her discretion issue or not issue a license for them to marry.

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A marriage license does not make a crime go away.

Why don't you just worry about the feds coming after you for child porn and leave the rest of the nice posters alone, huh?

Make me you sanctimonious prick. If you can come to this forum to spew hate and fear mongering, then the doors are pretty much open to everyone. Oh wait. Yes they are. I walked right in and stated my opinion.

Chaps your ass, don't it?

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Quoting indeepdoodoo

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Make me you sanctimonious prick. If you can come to this forum to spew hate and fear mongering, then the doors are pretty much open to everyone. Oh wait. Yes they are. I walked right in and stated my opinion.

Chaps your ass, don't it?

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The doors are likely about to be closed for you.

Good. I hope the doors SLAM because this is NOT the place where someone can get rational advice on their issues. This is some kind of scab picking venus fly trap honey pot where you come hoping for help and you leave ready to blow your brains out. There is a difference between cold hard truth and pointless name calling and doom saying.

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Quoting indeepdoodoo

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Good. I hope the doors SLAM because this is NOT the place where someone can get rational advice on their issues. This is some kind of scab picking venus fly trap honey pot where you come hoping for help and you leave ready to blow your brains out. There is a difference between cold hard truth and pointless name calling and doom saying.

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Go back through your posts.

Re-read what you wrote.

That is my advice to you.

My experience has been that all this positivity for the person who's most likely goes away once he realizes that
there are plenty of young girls he hasn't impregnated yet. She'll be so upset by then, she'll be posting about whether or not she can get him on statutory charges. Let's be like the nature channel, ignore your urge to help. Sit back and watch the carnage instead.

Marry to cover a crime?

Honey, marriage takes two people to do. And a lot of LOVE, hard work, communication. Marrying to save his ass is not going to make things better.

15 and pregnant by an 18 year old. 18 year old is guilty of Statutory Rape. Plain and simple. Anyone knowing about it and not reporting can be guilty and charged as an accessory. And yes, the parents of the 15 year old can face charges - as they did not know where their kid was, they can face charges of child neglect.

Girlfriend needs to get to a doctor for proper pre-natal care.

Don't lie about who the father is. That kid has the right to know of any medical conditions that run in the family. He/she has the right to know his/her family.

Boyfriend is adult enough to have sex....he should also be adult enough to face the charges, and to provide for his kid.

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Quoting jk

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well, unless this is being prosecuted under federal law, federal law is not relevant. Want to guess what law FLORIDA would prosecute the crime under?


and getting married after the crime does not remove the prior crime. Only after married would sex be legal. The boy can still be prosecuted for the crime prior to the marriage. If you want to try to argue something such that a spouse cannot be compelled to testicy against a spouse:

so? The evidence (proven fact the child was pregnant prior to the marriage and the DNA associating the father with the child) is all that is needed to prove sexual contact prior to marriage.

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Actually the Federal Definition is relevant to understanding the conditions that exist under the State Law. The definition I mentioned is the minimal standard that states must follow. The creation of the state law may not exceed the limitations set by the federal government. In this respect the state may not make the difference in age greater than the 4 years nor may the state make the minimum age of consent less than 13. Thus the minimum age can be any age from 13 up and the difference in age from 4 years down.

When taken in context to what I was saying the Federal definition and subsequent laws can and should be considered when making a decision that would affect the lives of others. As the moral issue is what needs to be defined by the poster it would be relevant in trying to determine how they feel in regards to the minimal standards. As an example if a parent determines that their 13 year old is mature enough to have consensual sex with a person who is less than 4 years older then them. This would fall within the minimal standard and may help the parent decide what to do. If the 13 year old has consensual sex with someone who is more than 4 years their senior then this would be outside the minimal standard.

My personal opinion on this is not stated here. If the OP wants my personal opinion they can ask for it.

As for the argument about marriage I am not going to go there as the OP did not choose to discuss this point.

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Quoting noprimenumbers

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Actually the Federal Definition is relevant to understanding the conditions that exist under the State Law. The definition I mentioned is the minimal standard that states must follow. The creation of the state law may not exceed the limitations set by the federal government. In this respect the state may not make the difference in age greater than the 4 years nor may the state make the minimum age of consent less than 13. Thus the minimum age can be any age from 13 up and the difference in age from 4 years down.

When taken in context to what I was saying the Federal definition and subsequent laws can and should be considered when making a decision that would affect the lives of others. As the moral issue is what needs to be defined by the poster it would be relevant in trying to determine how they feel in regards to the minimal standards. As an example if a parent determines that their 13 year old is mature enough to have consensual sex with a person who is less than 4 years older then them. This would fall within the minimal standard and may help the parent decide what to do. If the 13 year old has consensual sex with someone who is more than 4 years their senior then this would be outside the minimal standard.

My personal opinion on this is not stated here. If the OP wants my personal opinion they can ask for it.

As for the argument about marriage I am not going to go there as the OP did not choose to discuss this point.

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wow. I have some letters to write.

See, there are all these states that have legalized grass in direct violation of federal law.... thereby exceeding the federal limitations and the fed minimum standard.

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Quoting noprimenumbers

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Actually the Federal Definition is relevant to understanding the conditions that exist under the State Law. The definition I mentioned is the minimal standard that states must follow. .

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Minimum standards the state must follow for what?



TITLE 42—THE PUBLIC HEALTH AND WELFARE

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CHAPTER 151—CHILD PROTECTION AND SAFETY

SUBCHAPTER I—SEX OFFENDER REGISTRATION AND NOTIFICATION
SUBCHAPTER II—CIVIL COMMITMENT OF DANGEROUS SEX OFFENDERS
SUBCHAPTER III—GRANTS AND OTHER PROVISIONS

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TITLE 42 > CHAPTER 151 > SUBCHAPTER I > Part A
Part A—Sex Offender Registration and Notification

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§ 16911. Relevant definitions, including Amie Zyla expansion of sex offender definition and expanded inclusion of child predators

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The law you cited is how the fed treats offenders for the purposes of establishing a sex offender registry. It does not limit nor impose requirements that the states require or except any age of person to be considered for a crime the state enacts.

So, regardless of what the federal law states as the definition of a child molester, by Florida law, the guy is a child molester:

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(5) LEWD OR LASCIVIOUS MOLESTATION. --

(a) A person who intentionally touches in a lewd or lascivious manner the breasts, genitals, genital area, or buttocks, or the clothing covering them, of a person less than 16 years of age, or forces or entices a person under 16 years of age to so touch the perpetrator, commits lewd or lascivious molestation.

(b) An offender 18 years of age or older who commits lewd or lascivious molestation against a victim less than 12 years of age commits a life felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082(3)(a)4.

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Notice the title of the law? Molestation. That means, if the crime fits, he is a molester and since it was a child, he is a child molester.

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The creation of the state law may not exceed the limitations set by the federal government. In this respect the state may not make the difference in age greater than the 4 years nor may the state make the minimum age of consent less than 13. Thus the minimum age can be any age from 13 up and the difference in age from 4 years down.

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from the statute:

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(C) Offenses involving consensual sexual conduct
An offense involving consensual sexual conduct is not a sex offense for the purposes of this subchapter if the victim was an adult, unless the adult was under the custodial authority of the offender at the time of the offense, or if the victim was at least 13 years old and the offender was not more than 4 years older than the victim.

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Notice: for the purposes of this chapter.

also note that that states: consensual sexual conduct. You need to realize that many states specifically state a child of a certain age cannot consent to sex. As such, that section of the law would not apply.

btw: I happen to know a guy that is on a sex offense registry. When the crime was committed, he was 16. The girl was 15. The sex, as far as each of the participants was concerned was consensual. Explain how your law prevents that from being considered a crime and prevents him from being listed on a sex offender registry.

You took one section of a statute and tried to apply it (improperly) to some claim the feds can somehow limit what a state can consider a crime. You are wrong.

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Quoting jk

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So, regardless of what the federal law states as the definition of a child molester, by Florida law, the guy is a child molester:

Notice the title of the law? Molestation. That means, if the crime fits, he is a molester and since it was a child, he is a child molester.

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The OP did not mention that the boy was suspected, charged, or convicted of a crime that would fit within the criteria needed to define him as any type of criminal. You however have already convicted him. Remember it is innocence before guilt. Objectivity is needed to give vital impartial information for one to base a decision on. Please work on this in the future.

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also note that that states: consensual sexual conduct. You need to realize that many states specifically state a child of a certain age cannot consent to sex. As such, that section of the law would not apply.

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I believe that I covered that subject well enough, however, I do sometimes tend to speak or write above others comprehension levels. If this is the case here let me know and I will try to explain in simpler terms.

Now as for the argument that I misapplied the federal definition, I would be glad to help you understand the fundamental concepts of our system of government here in the US. I would recommend you start with The Federalist Papers. PM me and I will give you links to some great information.

I apologize to the OP if we have gotten "off the track" a bit.

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noprimenumbers;538151]The OP did not mention that the boy was suspected, charged, or convicted of a crime that would fit within the criteria needed to define him as any type of criminal.

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what the Hell have you been smoking. I cited the law (at least one of them) that the guy has broken. It's an 18 yo guy and a 15 you girl. She's pregnant. It requires a criminal act to have gotten her pregnant.

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You however have already convicted him.

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Based on the information presented, damn straight.

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Remember it is innocence before guilt.

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It is presumed innocence until proven otherwise. I'm accepting the OP's statements as factual. That means the guy is guilty.

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Objectivity is needed to give vital impartial information for one to base a decision on. Please work on this in the future.

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No need to be objective here. OP supplied the statements that would, if proven out, will prove the guys guilt.

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I believe that I covered that subject well enough, however, I do sometimes tend to speak or write above others comprehension levels. If this is the case here let me know and I will try to explain in simpler terms.

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You haven't covered anything. You cited an inapplicable federal statute suggesting it determined what crimes a state can enact and enforce. It had nothing to do with the actual criminal acts.

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Now as for the argument that I misapplied the federal definition, I would be glad to help you understand the fundamental concepts of our system of government here in the US. I would recommend you start with The Federalist Papers. PM me and I will give you links to some great information.

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If your knowledge is anything such as you have presented so far, I doubt you will understand the Federalist papers (which, btw, are not law but one of several sources referred to in determining Constitutional issues), you have nothing you can teach me. As to speaking above me; believe whatever you want to believe.

Honestly... if you don't understand how a baby is proof of sexual activity, I don't know what to say... well, except you need to really sit down with mommy and daddy and ask them.

Don't ask any children though. You already know how that turns out.

All you have truly done is prove you have no idea how law works.

I would suggest you start by rereading the tenth amendment.

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if you don't understand how a baby is proof of sexual activity

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(BTW I kind of like your brand of sarcasm even if I am in opposition to your view point)
In this situation it would be pregnancy as the birth has not yet occurred. This however, is not proof of any one type of sexual activity. Just as a dead body is not proof of any one type of death.

The young man here could be taking responsibility for what someone else has done out of love for the young lady. The young lady could be suffering from sexual abuse by a family member that resulted in the pregnancy and believes that the young man is the father as a coping mechanism.

Her pregnancy is not proof of his sexual involvement with her any more than is his confession of responsibility. These things are evidence that sexual activity occurred and that the young man may have been the culprit. In the legal system this may be enough to warrant a DNA test to determine the biological father but not enough to convict.

Add a hole to the dead body above and what do you have, murder, accident or suicide? Let's even throw in a person who is saying "it's all my fault". Are they claiming that they committed murder, accidentally killed, or drove them to committing suicide?

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noprimenumbers;538151]The OP did not mention that the boy was suspected, charged, or convicted of a crime that would fit within the criteria needed to define him as any type of criminal.

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what the Hell have you been smoking. I cited the law (at least one of them) that the guy has broken. It's an 18 yo guy and a 15 you girl. She's pregnant. It requires a criminal act to have gotten her pregnant.

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You however have already convicted him.

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Based on the information presented, damn straight.

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Remember it is innocence before guilt.

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It is presumed innocence until proven otherwise. I'm accepting the OP's statements as factual. That means the guy is guilty.

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Objectivity is needed to give vital impartial information for one to base a decision on. Please work on this in the future.

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No need to be objective here. OP supplied the statements that would, if proven out, will prove the guys guilt.

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For another example I could claim that jk is a supporter vigilantly justice but to do so would not be right as I have no proof of this. jk could even confess that they are in support of it and it would still not be proof. It could be enough evidence to warrant further investigation but not enough to for a judge to issue a search warrant to find additional evidence.

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Quoting aaron

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If you wish to know the age of consent for your state, you may refer to one of the lists available from a variety of other websites. The following examples are provided without any endorsement of their content or accuracy - use them at your own risk:

• Avert.org
• About.com

Please do not ask in this forum if it is legal for you or someone else to engage in sex acts involving a minor or, if you're a minor, if it's legal for you to engage in sex acts with an adult. If you are concerned about potential prosecution for statutory rape or another sex crime, but nonetheless wish to pursue the relationship, consult a lawyer.

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I have tried to avoid conflicting with this rule. I have only stated the minimum standards as set by federal law by the example of one of several defining terms all of which are versions that use the same age/age range. If you wish to argue the validity of my statement that this is what the states must fall within please PM me and we can start a new thread or use some other method so as not to confuse others. I will not argue the guilt or innocence of any person under state law from the point of this or any other thread. I don't mind arguments that maintain some level of civility.

As for the issue of my knowledge, experience, and understanding of the law and legal process. The 10th Amendment is nothing without an understanding of its application. Here is one such; President Jackson's Proclamation Regarding Nullification, December 10, 1832 http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/jack01.asp Also note that the first paragraph has a link that should be read for a better understanding of the situation that is being addressed. If you have yet to visit the Avalon Project I recommend it as 1 of many great online resources. If you would like more resources let me know.

Side note:
I am looking for an online equivalent to the Anti-Federalist Papers compiled by Professor Herbert Storing. If anyone knows of such PM me I would be very grateful.

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noprimenumbers;538288](BTW I kind of like your brand of sarcasm even if I am in opposition to your view point)
In this situation it would be pregnancy as the birth has not yet occurred.

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so, is a child in a womb not a baby?

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This however, is not proof of any one type of sexual activity. Just as a dead body is not proof of any one type of death.

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accepting the OP's statements, it is proof of enough sexual activity to prosecute the guy for molestation of a minor.

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The young man here could be taking responsibility for what someone else has done out of love for the young lady. The young lady could be suffering from sexual abuse by a family member that resulted in the pregnancy and believes that the young man is the father as a coping mechanism.

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Ok, and it might be an immaculate conception or an alien/human hybrid experiment. I'm going to take the op's statements at face value and that is; the 18 yo guy is the father. If you want to speculate, be my guest. I guess when you are losing in every point of your argument, you start grabbing at anything to keep your head above water.

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Her pregnancy is not proof of his sexual involvement with her any more than is his confession of responsibility. These things are evidence that sexual activity occurred and that the young man may have been the culprit. In the legal system this may be enough to warrant a DNA test to determine the biological father but not enough to convict.

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You are right but again, taking the OP's statements at face value.....

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Add a hole to the dead body above and what do you have, murder, accident or suicide? Let's even throw in a person who is saying "it's all my fault". Are they claiming that they committed murder, accidentally killed, or drove them to committing suicide?

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how far are you going to run away from the case at hand?

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For another example I could claim that jk is a supporter vigilantly justice but to do so would not be right as I have no proof of this. jk could even confess that they are in support of it and it would still not be proof. It could be enough evidence to warrant further investigation but not enough to for a judge to issue a search warrant to find additional evidence.

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was that supposed to be:

a supporter of vigilante justice or something else. For claiming to be so intelligent, using vigilantly (which means: watchful) in place of vigilante (meaning: extra-governmental justice) is a huge faux pas (synonym of: gaffe, in case you are not familiar with the term)

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I have tried to avoid conflicting with this rule. I have only stated the minimum standards as set by federal law by the example of one of several defining terms all of which are versions that use the same age/age range.

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Are you going back to that incorrectly cited law you presented previously? You really don't understand what that law is about, do you?

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I will not argue the guilt or innocence of any person under state law from the point of this or any other thread. I don't mind arguments that maintain some level of civility.

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Thank God you don't require they require some level of understanding of the laws. If you did, you would have to excuse yourself.

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As for the issue of my knowledge, experience, and understanding of the law and legal process.

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let me finish your statement for you:

I have none.

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so, is a child in a womb not a baby?

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Personally I believe that life begins a conception. I am not familiar with the any of the laws or judgments on the issue. As such I only differentiate for clarification of the situation.

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accepting the OP's statements, it is proof of enough sexual activity to prosecute the guy for molestation of a minor.

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I can accept this statement a one possibility. But I must ask, where you accepted my argument below (with exception) could you explain the minor contradiction? I feel like I could have done a better job by combining the 2 parts.

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Her pregnancy is not proof of his sexual involvement with her any more than is his confession of responsibility. These things are evidence that sexual activity occurred and that the young man may have been the culprit. In the legal system this may be enough to warrant a DNA test to determine the biological father but not enough to convict.

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You are right but again, taking the OP's statements at face value.....

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was that supposed to be:

a supporter of vigilante justice or something else. For claiming to be so intelligent, using vigilantly (which means: watchful) in place of vigilante (meaning: extra-governmental justice) is a huge faux pas (synonym of: gaffe, in case you are not familiar with the term)

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Can we agree that we all make stupid mistakes and not hold it against each other once we admit to them?

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Are you going back to that incorrectly cited law you presented previously? You really don't understand what that law is about, do you?

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Forgive me while I try one more time. I did not cite a law I cited a defining term. It defines the minimum requirements. To my knowledge all states have modified their laws according to these defined limits. Most have raised the minimum age of consent to 16 or 17 and the age difference to 3 years. I don't know yet what the reason for setting the minimum age at 13 as this is just too young. I set the age at 21 for my kids (good luck with that) If you still think I am wrong in demonstrating the minimums for moral consideration I want to understand why. As you say "face value" I see not only the legal issue but the moral one as well in the OP's questions. Because I personally can not say that it is ok to hide this from the law I show the absolute minimum that is allowable by any law and this goes to the federal definition.

And what is wrong with the dead body analogy? I thought it fit quite well.

Can I go back to the original OP post and ask what education the man has, what type of work does he do, and what attributes OP believs this man has to prove he is able to support and provide a good home and be a good role model to this child and girl.

Are we going to see this couple on an episode of COPS during a domestic dispute ?

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noprimenumbers;538348]Personally I believe that life begins a conception. I am not familiar with the any of the laws or judgments on the issue. As such I only differentiate for clarification of the situation.

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so now, you say you accept life begins at conception but in the prior post, you denied there was a baby. Yes, it is semantics but it shows inconsistency on your part since both statements were made by you.

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I can accept this statement a one possibility. But I must ask, where you accepted my argument below (with exception) could you explain the minor contradiction? I feel like I could have done a better job by combining the 2 parts.

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in the situation at hand, we have an earnest belief the guy in question is the father. I acknowledge that. In your other scenario, you were speaking of a legal certainty. Obviously in the thread, there is no legal certainty until there is testing performed.

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Can we agree that we all make stupid mistakes and not hold it against each other once we admit to them?

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I know I do but I wasn't the one claiming to be holier than thou. You are the one that put yourself above everybody else here so pointing out your error was simply to let you know that you may be thinking more of yourself than the truth justifies.

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Forgive me while I try one more time. I did not cite a law I cited a defining term.

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You cited a law. Remember when you posted this:

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42 USC § 16911. Relevant definitions, including Amie Zyla expansion of sex offender definition and expanded inclusion of child predators

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Yes, you posted an excerpt from that law but that is typical in citing a law. There is no reason to present all the info that would be superfluous to the reason for citing the law.

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It defines the minimum requirements.

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requirements for what? You seem to have missed where I showed you the title of the section defines it as the basis for instituting a sex offender registry. Beyond that, you need to understand that a state can enact and enforce a law more stringent than the federal law that is applicable to within their state borders.

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To my knowledge all states have modified their laws according to these defined limits. Most have raised the minimum age of consent to 16 or 17 and the age difference to 3 years.

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You need to research a lot more.

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I don't know yet what the reason for setting the minimum age at 13 as this is just too young.

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some states have some very antiquated though processes where it was not uncommon for a child under 15 to get married. When the life expectancy is 35 or 40, 15 is darn near middle aged.

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I set the age at 21 for my kids (good luck with that) If you still think I am wrong in demonstrating the minimums for moral consideration I want to understand why.

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+well, for all the states that the age where a person becomes an adult is 18, your restriction to 21 is a bit overly oppressive.

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As you say "face value" I see not only the legal issue but the moral one as well in the OP's questions. Because I personally can not say that it is ok to hide this from the law I show the absolute minimum that is allowable by any law and this goes to the federal definition.

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the fed definition has nothing to do with this being a crime or not. The state law says it is so it is.

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Quoting DaveJames

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Can I go back to the original OP post and ask what education the man has, what type of work does he do, and what attributes OP believs this man has to prove he is able to support and provide a good home and be a good role model to this child and girl.

Are we going to see this couple on an episode of COPS during a domestic dispute ?

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Regardless of his education or employment status, this guy is 18! I find it hard to imagine him being in a committed relationship for long. At some point, there is going to be little desire to protect him from the law. athat point should present itself right around the time the 15 year old gets her heart broken and now wants revenge.

Set you DVR for COPS in about five years.

jk I would like to continue with this conversation but I feel as though we are taking away from the original post. Perhaps we could pick it up in a few days if you like.

Sorry if I came across as trying to be better than others. I looked it over and I see your point it wasn't intentional. I find it difficult to keep my personal feelings out of it so tend to over compensate. Let's see if the OP will come back. I hope so as DaveJames has some interesting questions.

I don't think you should do anything about it. It's not officially rape, if the girl had a say-so in the act. She is fifteen years old, did she SAY she was raped? NO, they are TOGETHER, as in dating. Although, I am no attorney at ALL, but if her immediate family, let's say her father, isn't doing anything about it, then I'd advise you not to do anything, that's just going to ruin your relationship with that girl AND her family. I really disagree with the whole, "She's fifteen, there is no way she knew what she was getting herself into, she's just a child", that's incorrect. She knew what she was doing, and she's having a baby, he doesn't seem like he's leaving her with no way to take care of the child or anything. I think it would be a waste in court, and it could really ruin a family. If the hospital or any place asks to know the father, that is legally none of their business, and she does NOT have to tell them a word. Nobody does. Their job is to take care of a young girl pregnant, not find out her life story.

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Quoting KatelinNicole77

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I don't think you should do anything about it. It's not officially rape, if the girl had a say-so in the act. She is fifteen years old, did she SAY she was raped? NO, they are TOGETHER, as in dating. Although, I am no attorney at ALL, but if her immediate family, let's say her father, isn't doing anything about it, then I'd advise you not to do anything, that's just going to ruin your relationship with that girl AND her family. I really disagree with the whole, "She's fifteen, there is no way she knew what she was getting herself into, she's just a child", that's incorrect. She knew what she was doing, and she's having a baby, he doesn't seem like he's leaving her with no way to take care of the child or anything. I think it would be a waste in court, and it could really ruin a family. If the hospital or any place asks to know the father, that is legally none of their business, and she does NOT have to tell them a word. Nobody does. Their job is to take care of a young girl pregnant, not find out her life story.

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I can't even begin to correct the misinformation in this post - there's just so much of it.

PLEASE don't post unless you know what you're talking about!