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Speeding Ticket in Orange County, California VC 22350

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  • 12-28-2010, 04:24 PM
    JackMan017
    Speeding Ticket in Orange County, California VC 22350
    I received a speeding citation yesterday on an orange county public road and I would like to contest it. It's written up as VC 22350 70mph in a 50mph zone. The citation was given to me on the premise the officer paced my speed, thus no radar was involved. The infraction symbol on the citation is circled and it says I am to appear at the court by February 8, 2011. I live in the same city as where I received the citation. On the citation it says my approx speed is 70mph, The max speed box next to it says 50mph and the safe speed box two boxes away from that says 50mph.

    Should I first file the informal discovery for request? If so, what date is in my best interest to file this request? Should a copy be sent to all 3 parties (i.e. police station, district attorney, and city attorney?)
  • 12-28-2010, 04:40 PM
    That Guy
    Re: Speeding Ticket, Need Assistance - Orange County, California Vc-22350
    Quote:

    Quoting JackMan017
    View Post
    I received a speeding citation yesterday on an orange county public road and I would like to contest it. It's written up as VC 22350 70mph in a 50mph zone. The citation was given to me on the premise the officer paced my speed, thus no radar was involved. The infraction symbol on the citation is circled and it says I am to appear at the court by February 8, 2011. I live in the same city as where I received the citation. On the citation it says my approx speed is 70mph, The max speed box next to it says 50mph and the safe speed box two boxes away from that says 50mph.

    Should I first file the informal discovery for request? If so, what date is in my best interest to file this request? Should a copy be sent to all 3 parties (i.e. police station, district attorney, and city attorney?)

    Now is as good a time as ever to request discovery... And I would serve it on all three and file a copy of the same in court.

    One thing to note is that speed trap laws do not apply to speeding citations that resulted from a "pace" so you should know that your options as far as fighting it are extremely limited.

    Good luck!

    Edited to add: You may have to wait until your citation is filed in court (a minimum of 21 days from the date the citation was issued) before you can initiate your discovery request.
  • 12-28-2010, 04:57 PM
    davidmcbeth3
    Re: Speeding Ticket, Need Assistance - Orange County, California Vc-22350
    Ask for the police dept's pacing method or method that the police use. You will find that they dont have any method. Then when the officer testifies about pacing, motion to strike his testimony...he cannot make up his own method -- he's not qualified to do it.
  • 12-28-2010, 05:04 PM
    JackMan017
    Re: Speeding Ticket, Need Assistance - Orange County, California Vc-22350
    Thank you That Guy, greatly appreciated.

    I'm just curious, is there any advantage to me if I file the IDR 21 days from the citation date versus say 60 days from citation date or even waiting a week before my February 8th appearence date to file the IDR?

    In the event I actually do reveive the IDR back in it's completed form from the court or police station and I do decide to fight it, what are my limited options? Maybe I'm getting a little ahead of myself here.
  • 12-30-2010, 01:54 PM
    superfuture
    Re: Speeding Ticket, Need Assistance - Orange County, California Vc-22350
    I essentially received the same ticket on I-5 (or 170). I was apparently going 72mph in a 55 mph zone. Except the officer indicated he had paced me for about 3 miles and videotaped me. Is this common?

    I'd also like to submit an informal discovery request. At the same time, would it be OK to submit a continuance request? I will be out of the country around the court date. In addition, I live out of the state of CA.
  • 12-31-2010, 07:26 AM
    CDornsife
    Re: Speeding Ticket, Need Assistance - Orange County, California Vc-22350
    If you need to win this because of priors you need a very competent attorney that can challenge the safety value of the 50 mph posting. The speed trap law only applies when radar/lidar is used, but due process applies in all cases.

    In California we have found reverse engineering a prevalent practice to cause limits to be under posted and California's standards for setting limits can also be challenged. The number posted is never the maximum safe speed because the 85th percentile speed is the safest speed, and limits in California are as a matter of practice posted at or below this threshold so the number on the sign does not in itself represent probable cause for an unsafe act.

    This is a prima facie zone that provides a rebuttable presumptive challenge. Prior to the stop the officer must know what the range of safe speeds are for that particular segment of roadway as determined by the study, this is an extremely rare occurrence. Moreover, because California studies are only spot studies, the range of safe speeds over the course of a day is an unknown nor do their studies quantify this range, thus the officer becomes in-law incompetent to testify per se as to prior knowledge of what a safe speed was.

    Defenses 1. Value posted on the sign not supportable by law, 2. Safe for conditions range of speeds not quantified or unknown because of inadequate study or quantification, 3. Absent prior knowledge of 1 and 2 traffic stop lacked probable cause because range of safe speeds is to be determined by an engineering finding of fact, absent prior knowledge the officer lacked foundation for stop, 4. and of particular importance in this instance, by citing the posted as the safety threshold they have demonstrated their ignorance of engineering tenants that govern this field and the shape of the parabolic risk curve for being involved in an accident because the posted is never that threshold per California posting practices. Keep in mind that the mean plus 16 mph is still within the safe for conditions speed according to the FHWA, and on higher speed roads the safest speed shifts to the 90th percentile speed.

    The Basic Speed Rule trumps: The Highway Safety Act of 1966 incorporated into federal law the progeny of the 1926, Uniform Vehicle Code (UVC) which in part required motorists to drive at speeds “reasonable and prudent” (Basic Speed Law UVC § 11-801) where speed in itself is not a violation of law; and, the 1927 the American Association of State Highway Officials published the “Manual and Specifications for the Manufacture, Display, and Erection of U.S. Standard Road Markers and Signs (for rural roads)” which evolved into the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD), 23 U.S.C. 109(d) and 402(a) et al.
  • 12-31-2010, 11:41 AM
    GWE
    Re: Speeding Ticke in Orange County, California VC 22350
    This is an infraction -- there is no police report--- there might be a tape from the police car or a radar printout. When you show up at your arraignment you can then ask the DA for discovery. I have no idea how this works in Orange County. The DA or City attorney might not staff the court. You may have to ask the police agency directly.


    You will have to plead not guilty and set the case for trial to get discovery.

    What agency issued the ticket?

    I think the fine will be less than $300, -- you may be able to get that reduced if you show up at Court.


    See what the fine is on the courtesy notice you get. If you have no other problems you should consider going to traffic school.
  • 01-01-2011, 12:57 PM
    HonkingAntelope
    Re: Speeding Ticket, Need Assistance - Orange County, California Vc-22350
    Quote:

    Quoting CDornsife
    View Post
    If you need to win this because of priors you need a very competent attorney that can challenge the safety value of the 50 mph posting. The speed trap law only applies when radar/lidar is used, but due process applies in all cases.

    In California we have found reverse engineering a prevalent practice to cause limits to be under posted and California's standards for setting limits can also be challenged. The number posted is never the maximum safe speed because the 85th percentile speed is the safest speed, and limits in California are as a matter of practice posted at or below this threshold so the number on the sign does not in itself represent probable cause for an unsafe act.

    This is a prima facie zone that provides a rebuttable presumptive challenge. Prior to the stop the officer must know what the range of safe speeds are for that particular segment of roadway as determined by the study, this is an extremely rare occurrence. Moreover, because California studies are only spot studies, the range of safe speeds over the course of a day is an unknown nor do their studies quantify this range, thus the officer becomes in-law incompetent to testify per se as to prior knowledge of what a safe speed was.

    Defenses 1. Value posted on the sign not supportable by law, 2. Safe for conditions range of speeds not quantified or unknown because of inadequate study or quantification, 3. Absent prior knowledge of 1 and 2 traffic stop lacked probable cause because range of safe speeds is to be determined by an engineering finding of fact, absent prior knowledge the officer lacked foundation for stop, 4. and of particular importance in this instance, by citing the posted as the safety threshold they have demonstrated their ignorance of engineering tenants that govern this field and the shape of the parabolic risk curve for being involved in an accident because the posted is never that threshold per California posting practices. Keep in mind that the mean plus 16 mph is still within the safe for conditions speed according to the FHWA, and on higher speed roads the safest speed shifts to the 90th percentile speed.

    The Basic Speed Rule trumps: The Highway Safety Act of 1966 incorporated into federal law the progeny of the 1926, Uniform Vehicle Code (UVC) which in part required motorists to drive at speeds “reasonable and prudent” (Basic Speed Law UVC § 11-801) where speed in itself is not a violation of law; and, the 1927 the American Association of State Highway Officials published the “Manual and Specifications for the Manufacture, Display, and Erection of U.S. Standard Road Markers and Signs (for rural roads)” which evolved into the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD), 23 U.S.C. 109(d) and 402(a) et al.

    You might want to re-read VC22351(b) and bone up on CA speed trap law a little bit.
  • 01-02-2011, 01:24 AM
    davidmcbeth3
    Re: Speeding Ticke in Orange County, California VC 22350
    Quote:

    Quoting GWE
    View Post
    This is an infraction -- there is no police report--- there might be a tape from the police car or a radar printout. When you show up at your arraignment you can then ask the DA for discovery. I have no idea how this works in Orange County. The DA or City attorney might not staff the court. You may have to ask the police agency directly.


    You will have to plead not guilty and set the case for trial to get discovery.

    What agency issued the ticket?

    I think the fine will be less than $300, -- you may be able to get that reduced if you show up at Court.


    See what the fine is on the courtesy notice you get. If you have no other problems you should consider going to traffic school.

    Discovery is a good idea but do this now .. then you can hound the DA during your arraignment & actually ask the judge to give a date for complying with the discovery and that sanctions will be imposed if not complied with.
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