Mother Took Child, Disputes Paternity

My question involves paternity law for the State of: PA

My ex-girlfriend removed a child from my home shortly after we moved to NJ and went back to PA where we were previously, she now contests that I am not the father. It is realistically a 50-50, we were sexually active during the time of his conception, however she now insists I am not the father and that a DNA test will prove it. I have retained counsel but am waiting for them to get back to me and things to get started. I know what I am going to do if I am the father, but am less clear on my options if I am not.

Q1: After child's birth, xgf and I signed numerous documents, including those affirming my paternity. These were signed in the presence of witnesses, including my mother, nurses and hospital administrator and after finishing the administrator took the documents with her to begin the paperwork. XGF later gave me a run-around about the BC and SS# and why they hadn't arrived yet, which I didn't question at the time and now of course I have had to order the BC from PA Dept of Records myself. Is there any way the mother could have legally changed these documents subsequently without my express approval?

Q2: As I am still unsure of whether the child is mine, one attorney recommended claiming custody and letting her come back to challenge paternity. While this counter-intuitive strategy appears to have some merit, I would be curious to hear other takes on the pros and cons, as of course if I am not the father, I would like to know that as soon as possible.

Q3: If the child is not mine, it would be highly unlikely I could obtain any judgment for fraud from the mother as she is broke and always will be. If I did obtain a settlement (for back child support and/or mental anguish) is there any kind of system in place for the settlement to come to me in dribs and drabs by way of garnishing her future earnings? Would any attorney work a case on that contingency for no retainer and half the settlement or something like that if it was a "slam dunk" case? Would I be able to collect out of child support payments from the "real father" or somehow file an action against the real father as a beneficiary of the fraud, as he did not have to pay support?

How old is this child? It matters.

1. If you signed the AOP, you are legally the child's father. End of story. She could not legally change any official documents without you being at least notified.

2. There's nothing stopping you from filing for joint custody now.

3. Fraud? What fraud? There is no fraud here. You willingly signed those forms; had you had any doubt you should have obtained a DNA test before signing.

You would have no cause of action against the mother OR the biological father. Period. Even if.

Sigh - to anyone else reading, this is exactly why you don't sign ANY kind of paternity papers without first - assuming you're not married to the mother - having a DNA paternity test.

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Quoting Dogmatique

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How old is this child? It matters.

1. Thank you for this answer, very reassuring.

2. That is the legal strategy I may be pursuing, file for joint or even total custody and have her respond in court that she is a slut. Sure to get her off on the right foot.

3. Fraud? What fraud? There is no fraud here. You willingly signed those forms; had you had any doubt you should have obtained a DNA test before signing.

You would have no cause of action against the mother OR the biological father. Period. Even if.

Sigh - to anyone else reading, this is exactly why you don't sign ANY kind of paternity papers without first - assuming you're not married to the mother - having a DNA paternity test.

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Thanks for the quick reply. Child is 5 mo's.

As for 3. The fraud would be in the case he is NOT mine. This is not an "I'm trying to escape" case. This is a "hope beyond hope he is mine because I raised him these five months and went through the pregnancy with her and love him to pieces and then seek full custody cause I can prove she's a nutcase" case

Knowing GF's troubled past, I asked her point blank if it was mine to which of course she adamantly replied it was, I signed the forms having had intercourse with her during the window of conception, going through the whole pregnancy and raising the kid - who I think looks like me - for five months. I had no reasonable suspicion based on evidence available at the time she was being untruthful when she made that representation. Now she indicates that she always suspected it was not and there is a real father waiting in the wings which she knew of all along. That is where paternity fraud would come in I think and if this is the case, then I'm interested in what civil or criminally would stick.

As for your last comment, I am certainly at a place where my trust levels are at an all time low. I will start every date from now on with waiver-signing and notifications that they are being recorded....

Seriously - I know you're hurt, and feel betrayed, but let go of the "fraud" issue.

Even assuming you can prove fraud - which I doubt you can (all it will take to rebut the accusation is "You're honor, I had no idea whatsoever the child wasn't his!" and that's that) - all that does is open another door for you to disestablish your legal paternity if you're barred by statute (you only have 60 days in NJ to rescind that AOP).

It's not a crime to be mistaken.

I'm tempted to agree with your attorney actually - go and file for custody. Let her raise the issue of paternity but be prepared for things to go either way.

Do post back once you've heard from the attorney, k?

One other thing - full custody? highly unlikely.

Unless you can prove that she's legally unfit.

Again thanks for the reply. I am terrified of the humiliation of my friends, family and coworkers if the child is not mine, I guess this motivates my bringing up fraud charges as you say. I guess I can just anonymously let know the IRS that she hasn't declared any of her income in years....ha... or that she falsified student loan applications to claim lower household income.

Other than being the mother, and having the milk dispensers, I can not concieve of a criteria of the best interest of the child where not only the situation I can provide would be superior, but that the situation she can provide would be considered seriously deficient. I feel uncomfortable going into further details, but while the child is currently in no imminent danger the home she will have him in would be considered far less than even average accept-ability based on the other people, her psycho family, who live there involving criminal records and other public records on those people regarding the upkeep of children and negligence thereof. I also believe I could compel the production of or produce from the past psychological evidence which would weigh against her, there may be a previous act of child endangerment on her part at an old employer, and I can certainly establish of historic inability on her part to deal with any adult responsibilities necessary to care for a child in a stabile home (constantly broke, evicted once a year, has never shown motivation or competence to support herself). This is even before consulting with a person from her past who would have all the motivation in the world to point me and my lawyer in the right direction for more dirt from a time I did not know her, without ever having to show up in court.

While I don't quite have video of her shaking the baby, yet... thank god, all my anger aside, this would be FAR from a case where typical weekdays/weekend custody would be fait accompli. I am confident that I can certainly demonstrate that I can provide a better and more stable home/atmosphere/future for the child. I feel I can use one shovel full of dirt to push her into a corner, and the other shovel full to make her voluntarily sign off on custody in exchange for "nominal motherhood" and supervised visitation. I know how brutal that sounds, but you will have to believe me that regardless of whether that kid is mine or not, a lifetime with that family will be condemning him to almost certain failure. I did love her and tried to rescue her from it....sigh....it's hard to type with all the fingers missing from my "feeding" hand.

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Quoting Sucker in PA?

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Again thanks for the reply. I am terrified of the humiliation of my friends, family and coworkers if the child is not mine, I guess this motivates my bringing up fraud charges as you say. I guess I can just anonymously let know the IRS that she hasn't declared any of her income in years....ha... or that she falsified student loan applications to claim lower household income.

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Please don't act out of anger or vengeance. Reporting her would accomplish...what? She may or may not get into trouble, the child would likely suffer and you'd still not end up with full custody.

Do you really want the child to suffer? Moreover do you want to be seen as the bitter ex?

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Other than being the mother, and having the milk dispensers, I can not concieve of a criteria of the best interest of the child where not only the situation I can provide would be superior, but that the situation she can provide would be considered seriously deficient. I feel uncomfortable going into further details, but while the child is currently in no imminent danger the home she will have him in would be considered far less than even average accept-ability based on the other people, her psycho family, who live there involving criminal records and other public records on those people regarding the upkeep of children and negligence thereof.

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Yet you chose her as good Mom material. Unless you can prove that the child IS in imminent danger, or that his welfare is DIRECTLY compromised by being around these people...you have nothing.

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I also believe I could compel the production of or produce from the past psychological evidence which would weigh against her, there may be a previous act of child endangerment on her part at an old employer, and I can certainly establish of historic inability on her part to deal with any adult responsibilities necessary to care for a child in a stabile home (constantly broke, evicted once a year, has never shown motivation or competence to support herself). This is even before consulting with a person from her past who would have all the motivation in the world to point me and my lawyer in the right direction for more dirt from a time I did not know her, without ever having to show up in court.

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You're missing the point. If you didn't do anything about these past incidents before now, you have basically told the court that you're OK with things. After all, if the child was truly in danger you would have involved CPS, correct?

So - if it it was that bad...why haven't you?

If it's not that bad - which I suspect is the case - it's a non-issue.

I STRONGLY advise you to quit trying to dig up dirt against Mom. Parents who do this in court tend to come out looking worse.

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While I don't quite have video of her shaking the baby, yet... thank god, all my anger aside, this would be FAR from a case where typical weekdays/weekend custody would be fait accompli. I am confident that I can certainly demonstrate that I can provide a better and more stable home/atmosphere/future for the child.

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How exactly are you going to do that?

Remember, you haven't once bothered to call CPS or other authorities.

The court will want to know why it's only now - that you've split up - that her living conditions are a consideration?

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I feel I can use one shovel full of dirt to push her into a corner, and the other shovel full to make her voluntarily sign off on custody in exchange for "nominal motherhood" and supervised visitation. I know how brutal that sounds, but you will have to believe me that regardless of whether that kid is mine or not, a lifetime with that family will be condemning him to almost certain failure. I did love her and tried to rescue her from it....sigh....it's hard to type with all the fingers missing from my "feeding" hand.

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So you want to bully her into signing over full custody?

Great parenting there.

That's frankly disgusting behavior and a judge is going to see right through it.

Don't take the phrasing of my responses due to my frustration as my legal strategy or posture. Your point about things not making a difference before doesn't jibe, because the child lived in my home before, under my supervision. He will now live in a home atmosphere I, and almost any reasonable person would consider unsafe, and I have made reports to that effect once he began living there. That is a material change to the detriment of the child.

Her inability to live up to adult responsibilities was also immaterial when I was supporting the household. I was trying to help a disadvantaged person who I loved become the better person she desperately wanted to be. I am not disputing her skill in "the mechanics of motherhood" but again overall it's a material change to the detriment of the child.

When I say dirt, I don't mean her sex video or her bong, I mean those many pieces of actual relevant evidence which would combine to demonstrate to a dispassionate third party that there is a case for and a clearly preferable party for full custody.

The issue here is I can't go into detail to win your sympathy, I may not win your total sympathy with that detail, but I'd do a little better at least. Think about my questions not in terms of if I'm right or wrong, because you'll never know that and she isn't here to defend herself. Assume I'm right and help me with the advice that a person in the right would need to prove it. Like I said, I know how brutal my above phrase sounds but since you won't know the truth, for the purpose of this excercise, assume that my full custody is the best thing for the child, and it's not a matter of best vs. average, it's best vs. worst, and that applying the pressure of any relevant evidence I can bring to bear, as is my right, to get speedy justice for myself and get on with the child and my life is the best thing for both of us. The best thing for the mother at this point is irrelevant to me.

I will try to phrase my questions and comments more judiciously, I realize that I have offended you as a result of bringing a lot of raw emotion and not being able to bring the detail that justifies it. I can only say that anyone who tries to pull someone out of the quicksand might end up in the quicksand themselves, and when you love someone and they are just wallowing and treading the quicksand, it is hard to decide when to drop the rope and whether the kid is mine or not, I certainly concede my own poor judgement in that respect, and find it hard as I wait for what should be a long, painful process to begin, to conceal my resentment and disappointment given an anonymous forum.

However at this point, I think I've said enough on this topic in terms of description, however am happy to engage more on the theoretical, burdens of proof, etc... which I am primarily interested in. I'll tone down the rage.

GOOD! Lose the emotion and start being practical.

If social services have found no reason to either remove the child or declare Mom unfit, you cannot use her crappy parenting against her in court. Though it pains me to say it, she is allowed to be a lousy parent. You'd be astonished at what passes for "acceptable" parenting. It's actually often dismally low in terms of standards.

So, to move on...

Full legal custody is rare.

Full physical custody is also currently uncommon in both PA and NJ; the norm is joint legal and physical with one parent being the primary physical custodian.

Status quo matters a lot - the parent who has been the primary caregiver usually retains primary physical custody after a break up.

You see, if you were together for 5 months and were quite ok with the situation, you're telling the world that you're also ok with Mom's parenting style and lifestyle.

Otherwise you would have tried to change it.

So help me help you. What EXACTLY is it that's changed in Mom's living situation?

Seriously - if you want to discuss what's legally fit or unfit, we'll need the details.

I only feel comfortable replying with the details already provided, slightly enhanced. The status quo will not be maintained because:

She has gone from living from my home where he was well provided for and cared for and the center of attention to a home with a person who has been cited for child neglect/abuse; a convicted sex offender - aggravated assault against a minor; and their two children one of who is prone to violent tantrums and has actually been rough with my infant son before and the other who is a nice enough two year old boy but that basically means a second crazy person for all intents and purposes. There is no current action against any of these people, but surely this is an area where it can be clearly demonstrated that one home situation is better than the other now and in the future. I didn't even like him visiting there and expressed this to her, and moving to NJ was a change I attempted to make to that situation. The fact that he's there now is driving me up the wall.

This is the new status quo, this is her support system, and it is not a good one. Her only alternate is another household with a person who has been cited for child neglect with an emotionally unstable teenager (2 abortions in the past year) and where four people would be stuffed in an apartment barely built for two. The third would be shacking up with some random dude, and other than me, let me tell you, she knows how to pick'em.

Without that support system, even when she is getting childcare, aid from the state, and whether she is working or not, she has a lifetime of experience which can be documented via the public record which indicates that she has no experience on her own voltion maintaining a stable residence, budgeting, handling credit/debt, etc...etc... or rather she has had the experience of trying to do these things and failing utterly even with support. An example would be her domineering brother can and would basically ask her to hand half the childcare check over because he really really needs it. She paid (translation: I paid) his phone bill for a year and a half because he whined about poverty and feeding is kids. Then he bought a flat screen and a blackberry. I, and the state, no doubt, will be throwing money at her while she drowns and that money that could serve the best interest of the child better will be wasted.

In either cases, he will become a social services case file child.

If they are going to base the whole entire decision of custody on the hallmark sentiment of mommy and baby, and act like all else is equal, you are right I am not going to get what I want for myself and the child. But if the court considers the best interest of the child in any kind of medium to long view, as well as the short view, considers the better home and support system I can provide, considers the state's role in that child's life in that same view, which could be minimal (I prevail) or maximal and perpetual (she prevails).

The psychological "pattern" evidence would buffer all these arguments. I am not going to prove she is a raging child abuser because she is not, but if I can prove that her pattern of behavior is not (just) hard luck or (just) a troubled past, but the result of deep-seated problems which manifest itself in a pattern of amoral and irresponsible behavior and outbursts (compulsive lying, acting against HER OWN BEST INTEREST, vicious betrayal, threats of suicide, running away from problems, never finishing anything started) from which she has shown no inclination to resolve through therapy, medication, etc... this three-pronged "attack" is the best argument for normalizing the child's life as early as possible with the most stable parent, particularly if that parent, while not conceding Rights, will grant Priviliges within reason for the mother to stay safely and reasonably involved in the life of a child.

Again, no smoking gun or pointing knife, and I know in criminal law the court waits for that before doing anything, but in family law? If I put a baby in a cage full of newborn tiger cubs it may not be that bad, but come back in five years? Or does the court simply not accept that kind of argument when they are taxed with making a decision about the future, rather than a judgement about the past? If I am the father, this is the key point I'm trying to learn about family law as it applies to my situation. I have heard rumors, but if you can prove one way "worst" and another way "best" isn't "best" in the best interest of the child, not "worst", not "medicore"?

Otherwise I appreciate that your criticism is helping me sharpen my arguments. Thanks. I'm going to bed.

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Quoting Sucker in PA?

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I only feel comfortable replying with the details already provided, slightly enhanced.

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I can understand that. And before you read the rest of my post, please understand that I'm NOT out to be obnoxious, argumentative or anything else. I'm not against you. I'm not for you. I'm pro-child, and I'm trying to help you understand how the family court system works.

K?

So. Let's go!

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The status quo will not be maintained because:

She has gone from living from my home where he was well provided for and cared for and the center of attention to a home with a person who has been cited for child neglect/abuse; a convicted sex offender - aggravated assault against a minor; and their two children one of who is prone to violent tantrums and has actually been rough with my infant son before and the other who is a nice enough two year old boy but that basically means a second crazy person for all intents and purposes.

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OK. The convicted sex offender - what relationship is he (sorry, I'm assuming it's a "he") to your ex? What was his conviction? When?

What did you do before when he was rough with the child?

Who is the other "crazy person"? Are you qualified to make that legal or medical designation?

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There is no current action against any of these people, but surely this is an area where it can be clearly demonstrated that one home situation is better than the other now and in the future. I didn't even like him visiting there and expressed this to her, and moving to NJ was a change I attempted to make to that situation. The fact that he's there now is driving me up the wall.

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You didn't like it but you didn't do anything about - correct?

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This is the new status quo, this is her support system, and it is not a good one. Her only alternate is another household with a person who has been cited for child neglect with an emotionally unstable teenager (2 abortions in the past year) and where four people would be stuffed in an apartment barely built for two.

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Prove that it would directly harm your child.

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The third would be shacking up with some random dude, and other than me, let me tell you, she knows how to pick'em.

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She picked you, dude ;)

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Without that support system, even when she is getting childcare, aid from the state, and whether she is working or not, she has a lifetime of experience which can be documented via the public record which indicates that she has no experience on her own voltion maintaining a stable residence, budgeting, handling credit/debt, etc...etc... or rather she has had the experience of trying to do these things and failing utterly even with support.

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And yet you CHOSE her as good Mommy material. Please don't misunderstand me - I get what you're saying. But you can't denigrate her at this point seeing as you saw fit to sleep with her at least once. YOU decided that she was fit. YOU basically told the world that she's a good incubator for your soldiers (so to speak).

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An example would be her domineering brother can and would basically ask her to hand half the childcare check over because he really really needs it. She paid (translation: I paid) his phone bill for a year and a half because he whined about poverty and feeding is kids. Then he bought a flat screen and a blackberry. I, and the state, no doubt, will be throwing money at her while she drowns and that money that could serve the best interest of the child better will be wasted.

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Legally irrelevant. If you're paying CS, Mom has the right to spend it on mani/pedis, Coach purses or hand it all over to her brother if she wants to. As long as the child is fed, clothed and housed..it's a non-issue.

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In either cases, he will become a social services case file child.

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That's possible, yes. And that doesn't mean his life is over, and it doesn't doom him to failure in life.

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If they are going to base the whole entire decision of custody on the hallmark sentiment of mommy and baby, and act like all else is equal, you are right I am not going to get what I want for myself and the child. But if the court considers the best interest of the child in any kind of medium to long view, as well as the short view, considers the better home and support system I can provide, considers the state's role in that child's life in that same view, which could be minimal (I prevail) or maximal and perpetual (she prevails).

The psychological "pattern" evidence would buffer all these arguments. I am not going to prove she is a raging child abuser because she is not, but if I can prove that her pattern of behavior is not (just) hard luck or (just) a troubled past, but the result of deep-seated problems which manifest itself in a pattern of amoral and irresponsible behavior and outbursts (compulsive lying, acting against HER OWN BEST INTEREST, vicious betrayal, threats of suicide, running away from problems, never finishing anything started) from which she has shown no inclination to resolve through therapy, medication, etc... this three-pronged "attack" is the best argument for normalizing the child's life as early as possible with the most stable parent, particularly if that parent, while not conceding Rights, will grant Priviliges within reason for the mother to stay safely and reasonably involved in the life of a child.

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But again - and I really want you to understand this - THIS IS THE WOMAN YOU CHOSE TO BE YOUR CHILD'S MOTHER. The court will absolutely and utterly agree with your choice, regardless of her background, until and unless you can NOW prove that she is unfit.

You better be able to PROVE that she's unfit. I mean hard proof.

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Again, no smoking gun or pointing knife, and I know in criminal law the court waits for that before doing anything, but in family law? If I put a baby in a cage full of newborn tiger cubs it may not be that bad, but come back in five years? Or does the court simply not accept that kind of argument when they are taxed with making a decision about the future, rather than a judgement about the past? If I am the father, this is the key point I'm trying to learn about family law as it applies to my situation. I have heard rumors, but if you can prove one way "worst" and another way "best" isn't "best" in the best interest of the child, not "worst", not "medicore"?

Otherwise I appreciate that your criticism is helping me sharpen my arguments. Thanks. I'm going to bed.

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Family law does NOT work on "what ifs" or "maybes". Family law acts upon the facts of the current situation. And the facts of your situation honestly do not warrant removing the child from Mom's care at the moment.

Unless your answer to my questions come forth and change my mind :)

Let's preface the next part with the somewhat obvious statement that..you may eventually have your paternity disestablished in court.

What will you do then?

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Quoting Dogmatique

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I can understand that. And before you read the rest of my post, please understand that I'm NOT out to be obnoxious, argumentative or anything else. I'm not against you. I'm not for you. I'm pro-child, and I'm trying to help you understand how the family court system works.

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Understood and appreciated, your devil's advocate position is helping me sharpen my arguments and I appreciate that.

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Let's preface the next part with the somewhat obvious statement that..you may eventually have your paternity disestablished in court.

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Answering this part first, note that it's the reason I started this thread as I know what I want to do if he is mine. Her story of infidelity is not far out to any other stories she has told, but I note if she knows the so-called father, she also has the baby right now and could easily demonstrate through a test of the three of them at a reputable clinic that the child is not mine and basically end this now. I have some evidence that she has been planning this removal for some time and resolving someone else's paternity would basically take me out of the picture for the time being and leave me with little option for justice as your previously indicated. I obviously, having gone through the child's life so far, have a hard time not thinking of him as mine, and given ex-gf's behavior, dishonesty and her brother's manipulation of her, suspect this to be a ruse to buy them time, or in the naive thought that somehow I will just go away without the question being satisfied and will come back when they want to hit me for child support? Trying to understand these people's motivations gives me a headache and makes me loathe humanity.

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The convicted sex offender - what relationship is he (sorry, I'm assuming it's a "he") to your ex? What was his conviction? When?

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Brother of my ex, tenant of the place she is staying - Aggravated sexual assault on a minor - 2006

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What did you do before when he was rough with the child?

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He hasn't been, see next question, though he has physically threatened me on several occasions, and I fear his access to the child lends itself to exploitation of that child for extortion of me and my family. As to whether he would assault my child or harm him directly, I simply do not know.

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Who is the other "crazy person"? Are you qualified to make that legal or medical designation?

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His wife has also had child abuse/neglect issues with her daughter who also lives in the home, to the extent the child was removed from her custody. The child herself is prone to violent fits and on at least a couple occasions been rough with my son as reported by my ex-gf. Both are being monitored by the state and are compelled to undergo psych evaluations.

Ex-Gf's mother, the only other place she can go, has also had child neglect issues which resulted in the removal of a child from her home. She is epileptic and possibly retarded.

Obviously I am not qualified, but these things are a matter of public record and can be brought to bear in a determination of the child's welfare and best interest.

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You didn't like it but you didn't do anything about - correct?

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Again, I pushed for this move to NJ and prior to that requested she spend less time in their household. I thought I was trying to save her from the crappy situation as much as I was trying to keep my son safe. Upon his removal from my home, and residency in this home, I reported to the police and division of youth services my concerns regarding his welfare. The former did welfare checks, and the latter has done nothing so far, which I am not sure about pursuing, I don't want my actions to push him into foster and would be interested in learning what is done with "children of a tender age" in these cases. If I can prove that his situation is not good to DYS, and that I am the father, as I legally am now, would I get de facto custody, would he be put in some state baby mill?

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Prove that it would directly harm your child.

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I am not sure how to do this, any more than I can prove that the axe murderer in the room with the axe is going to kill me. Surely, at least to some extent when determining the future, rather than litigating the past, the court can take into effect the circumstantial evidence, particularly a preponderance of it, which may indicate that harm is much more probable to the child if he remains in that situation. I can certainly suggest situations where this atmosphere is more likely to bring the child to harm then the one I can provide, say aforementioned violent little girl goes into a rage and pushes him off the couch, steps on him, throws a lamp across the room or hits him, all things that could do him severe harm if not constantly supervised second to second. Again the criteria is "the best" interest of the child, not the "lowest common denominator barely acceptable level" interest of the mother.

I have a better case using the past and it's patterns to indicate that the long-term quality of life of the child would be severely diminished if his day-to-day custody was placed in one home rather than a preferable and available option.

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She picked you, dude ;)

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To my eternal regret, other than the fact that I may have a wonderful little boy thanks to it.

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And yet you CHOSE her as good Mommy material. Please don't misunderstand me - I get what you're saying. But you can't denigrate her at this point seeing as you saw fit to sleep with her at least once. YOU decided that she was fit. YOU basically told the world that she's a good incubator for your soldiers (so to speak).

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I hear you, but this is an area where I can basically prove my intentions were pure and that I made every attempt in the world to improve her life and thought that I had to some extent succeeded. I am not disputing her love for our son or her ability to care for him properly in ideal circumstances. I am disputing the quality of circumstances she is now placing him in and her ability to ever improve those circumstances and the effect on the child if she continues to live her life the way she had.

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Legally irrelevant. If you're paying CS, Mom has the right to spend it on mani/pedis, Coach purses or hand it all over to her brother if she wants to. As long as the child is fed, clothed and housed..it's a non-issue.

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This makes my blood boil and I am sure I am not alone. Surely if she were given custody, despite the evidence I can present, there must be some allowance for state supervision in light of that evidence. Not to get into politics but there should be some way to convert CS payments to a credit card format like food stamps and welfare are in many states including PA in order to track spending.

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That's possible, yes. And that doesn't mean his life is over, and it doesn't doom him to failure in life.

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You don't know this family. Not one college grad, not one who has held a job or maintained a residency for more than 2 years - if that, not one who isn't in massive debt that they can never re-pay. Almost to a person they have public records of child neglect and even abuse as well as other records which could be brought to bear. Dishonest people with terrible values to an extent which can actually be demonstrated.

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But again - and I really want you to understand this - THIS IS THE WOMAN YOU CHOSE TO BE YOUR CHILD'S MOTHER. The court will absolutely and utterly agree with your choice, regardless of her background, until and unless you can NOW prove that she is unfit.

You better be able to PROVE that she's unfit. I mean hard proof.

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Again, I am playing the "White Knight" here, but Rapunzel let up her hair, as it is her right to do so as an adult (legally speaking), however the lonely tower is not a place to raise a child. I need to be able to transmute my perspective to the judge, demonstrate what happens when a person goes overboard to try to be just, loving, supportive to this person and give them the benefit of the doubt. The hard proof comes in with the "dirt" I mentioned earlier, much of which can be played off as "you may be shocked to discover" because what I know of previous incidents in her life involving childcare jobs she was fired from and previous relationships in which she assisted in a child's upbringing, her psychological diagnoses and other situations in her past which may speak to her inability to assume parenting responsibility, I know from her mouth to my ear of sympathy. There is almost no doubt that even these stories as I do know them would be material, and the version of these stories (and other stories) which may come from others or public records may in fact be worse, so bad, in fact, that this is what may be able to compel her to settle the custody issue pre-hearing. To be cheesy, my only defense was loving her and trusting her too much. I feel framing the narrative in this way may actually give me an advantage with the judge, as I can say, look, I gave her all the benefit of the doubt, and relied on her "testimony" and this is where we are, and these are the facts of the matter. A good person does this and a bad person does that.

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Family law does NOT work on "what ifs" or "maybes". Family law acts upon the facts of the current situation. And the facts of your situation honestly do not warrant removing the child from Mom's care at the moment.

Unless your answer to my questions come forth and change my mind :)

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Well, I don't know if I agree, the judge would have to make a decision based on what would probably result in the best interest of the child based on the facts of the situation. Again, as in my above metaphor, just as the danger would increase as the tiger cubs grew, the likelihood that this bad situation would have harmful effects increases the longer he stays in it. I would argue Family Law seems to work on both the what ifs and the facts. Also, the phrase "best interest of the child" looms large. Once she plays the "I'm the mommy card" her deck is completely depleted. I am trying to conceive of what other criteria then the ones I've spoken to may need to be satisfied under the fairly safe assumption that I can demonstrably provide current facts on her situation and my situation that make it clear to a judge that those criteria are well-satisfied by me, and unsatisfied by her. If you know and can share such common criteria, I can answer to it, and that would be quite helpful to me.

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Quoting Sucker in PA?

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Understood and appreciated, your devil's advocate position is helping me sharpen my arguments and I appreciate that.



Answering this part first, note that it's the reason I started this thread as I know what I want to do if he is mine. Her story of infidelity is not far out to any other stories she has told, but I note if she knows the so-called father, she also has the baby right now and could easily demonstrate through a test of the three of them at a reputable clinic that the child is not mine and basically end this now. I have some evidence that she has been planning this removal for some time and resolving someone else's paternity would basically take me out of the picture for the time being and leave me with little option for justice as your previously indicated. I obviously, having gone through the child's life so far, have a hard time not thinking of him as mine, and given ex-gf's behavior, dishonesty and her brother's manipulation of her, suspect this to be a ruse to buy them time, or in the naive thought that somehow I will just go away without the question being satisfied and will come back when they want to hit me for child support? Trying to understand these people's motivations gives me a headache and makes me loathe humanity.

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People sometimes do the worst things for either the right or wrong reasons (in their minds); a very good friend of mine carries with her the statement "Love your kid more than you hate your ex". I'm guessing you're now realizing how few people actually do that, and it's truly tragic isn't it?

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Brother of my ex, tenant of the place she is staying - Aggravated sexual assault on a minor - 2006

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Hmmm. You may want to check into the nature of the crime itself, and the terms of sentencing. If the conviction was an adult abusing a toddler, for example, you may be able to use that.

However, if it's something along the lines of "He was 18 and fondled a 16 year old girl" you've got nothing, really.

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He hasn't been, see next question, though he has physically threatened me on several occasions, and I fear his access to the child lends itself to exploitation of that child for extortion of me and my family. As to whether he would assault my child or harm him directly, I simply do not know.

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Then this is a non-issue in terms of custody. If he threatens you again, you call the police and file a restraining order against him.

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His wife has also had child abuse/neglect issues with her daughter who also lives in the home, to the extent the child was removed from her custody. The child herself is prone to violent fits and on at least a couple occasions been rough with my son as reported by my ex-gf. Both are being monitored by the state and are compelled to undergo psych evaluations.

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Is the child back with the wife now?

If she is...wife has basically been "ok"d to resume parenting her child and this will have little to no bearing on your case.

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Ex-Gf's mother, the only other place she can go, has also had child neglect issues which resulted in the removal of a child from her home. She is epileptic and possibly retarded.

Obviously I am not qualified, but these things are a matter of public record and can be brought to bear in a determination of the child's welfare and best interest.

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Don't be so sure. The courts assume that Mom is able to protect her child and unless you can prove that the situation creates an imminent danger it's really not going to matter too much.

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Again, I pushed for this move to NJ and prior to that requested she spend less time in their household. I thought I was trying to save her from the crappy situation as much as I was trying to keep my son safe. Upon his removal from my home, and residency in this home, I reported to the police and division of youth services my concerns regarding his welfare. The former did welfare checks, and the latter has done nothing so far, which I am not sure about pursuing, I don't want my actions to push him into foster and would be interested in learning what is done with "children of a tender age" in these cases. If I can prove that his situation is not good to DYS, and that I am the father, as I legally am now, would I get de facto custody, would he be put in some state baby mill?

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You are currently the legal father; if the child is removed from Mom's custody you are first in line (as a general rule). Proving the situation is "not good" isn't going to do it. You need to prove that the child's welfare is in danger, or the child is abused, or neglected.

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I am not sure how to do this, any more than I can prove that the axe murderer in the room with the axe is going to kill me. Surely, at least to some extent when determining the future, rather than litigating the past, the court can take into effect the circumstantial evidence, particularly a preponderance of it, which may indicate that harm is much more probable to the child if he remains in that situation.

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Again though the court cannot change custody based upon vague maybes; you need solid evidence. Such as the convicted sex offender...if his conviction was against a toddler for example, and his terms of probation preclude him from being around young children you can of course use this.

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I can certainly suggest situations where this atmosphere is more likely to bring the child to harm then the one I can provide, say aforementioned violent little girl goes into a rage and pushes him off the couch, steps on him, throws a lamp across the room or hits him, all things that could do him severe harm if not constantly supervised second to second. Again the criteria is "the best" interest of the child, not the "lowest common denominator barely acceptable level" interest of the mother.

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Has the child gone into a rage and harmed your child?

If the answer is no - again it's a non-issue.

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I have a better case using the past and it's patterns to indicate that the long-term quality of life of the child would be severely diminished if his day-to-day custody was placed in one home rather than a preferable and available option.

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You can't prove that though. I know I'm saying this over and over....but it's basically the bottom line.

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To my eternal regret, other than the fact that I may have a wonderful little boy thanks to it.

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And this is one reason why you need an attorney ;)

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I hear you, but this is an area where I can basically prove my intentions were pure and that I made every attempt in the world to improve her life and thought that I had to some extent succeeded. I am not disputing her love for our son or her ability to care for him properly in ideal circumstances. I am disputing the quality of circumstances she is now placing him in and her ability to ever improve those circumstances and the effect on the child if she continues to live her life the way she had.

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The child is currently with Mom. She is the child's primary caregiver. She certainly has status quo on her side. The fact that she moved from your residence and is in a somewhat iffy situation doesn't change this.


Your burden is to convince the court why the child should be removed from Mom's care. That's an uphill battle when Mom has been the primary caregiver...it really is no longer a case where both parents are on equal footing. Mom really does have the upper hand.

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This makes my blood boil and I am sure I am not alone. Surely if she were given custody, despite the evidence I can present, there must be some allowance for state supervision in light of that evidence. Not to get into politics but there should be some way to convert CS payments to a credit card format like food stamps and welfare are in many states including PA in order to track spending.

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It makes many people angry. However the courts will simply not order an accounting of how Mom spends the child support.

CS is meant to reimburse the custodial parent for costs incurred raising the child; as long as kiddo is fed, clothed and housed the CP is free to use as s/he wishes. The courts basically consider it none of the NCP's business.

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You don't know this family. Not one college grad, not one who has held a job or maintained a residency for more than 2 years - if that, not one who isn't in massive debt that they can never re-pay. Almost to a person they have public records of child neglect and even abuse as well as other records which could be brought to bear. Dishonest people with terrible values to an extent which can actually be demonstrated.

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What is important is MOM's record and history. Her friends and family are not going to enter the equation unless there is direct evidence that their presence/influence is harming the child now.

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Again, I am playing the "White Knight" here, but Rapunzel let up her hair, as it is her right to do so as an adult (legally speaking), however the lonely tower is not a place to raise a child. I need to be able to transmute my perspective to the judge, demonstrate what happens when a person goes overboard to try to be just, loving, supportive to this person and give them the benefit of the doubt. The hard proof comes in with the "dirt" I mentioned earlier, much of which can be played off as "you may be shocked to discover" because what I know of previous incidents in her life involving childcare jobs she was fired from and previous relationships in which she assisted in a child's upbringing, her psychological diagnoses and other situations in her past which may speak to her inability to assume parenting responsibility, I know from her mouth to my ear of sympathy. There is almost no doubt that even these stories as I do know them would be material, and the version of these stories (and other stories) which may come from others or public records may in fact be worse, so bad, in fact, that this is what may be able to compel her to settle the custody issue pre-hearing. To be cheesy, my only defense was loving her and trusting her too much. I feel framing the narrative in this way may actually give me an advantage with the judge, as I can say, look, I gave her all the benefit of the doubt, and relied on her "testimony" and this is where we are, and these are the facts of the matter. A good person does this and a bad person does that.

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I can't help but implore you not to go this route. If you turn this into "I'm the good person because of XYZ, she's the bad person because of ABC", I can almost guarantee it's not going to end well for you.

Slinging mud will leave you with very dirty hands.

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Well, I don't know if I agree, the judge would have to make a decision based on what would probably result in the best interest of the child based on the facts of the situation. Again, as in my above metaphor, just as the danger would increase as the tiger cubs grew, the likelihood that this bad situation would have harmful effects increases the longer he stays in it. I would argue Family Law seems to work on both the what ifs and the facts. Also, the phrase "best interest of the child" looms large. Once she plays the "I'm the mommy card" her deck is completely depleted. I am trying to conceive of what other criteria then the ones I've spoken to may need to be satisfied under the fairly safe assumption that I can demonstrably provide current facts on her situation and my situation that make it clear to a judge that those criteria are well-satisfied by me, and unsatisfied by her. If you know and can share such common criteria, I can answer to it, and that would be quite helpful to me.

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You have a very basic and simple problem and I'll try to summarise what I believe is the bottom line.

Mom at the moment is the sole legal custodian. The police and DYS have been involved and - apparently - have found no reason to remove the child.

In order to change custody at this point, you will need to prove a change in circumstance in the child's life (as in, Mom dying tragically, Mom trying to move out of state without permission etc) or that the child is being abused or neglected or otherwise endangered.

It's no longer a case of two parents being on equal footing and the Judge having to decide between the parents; it's now about changing the status quo which is not going to be easy.

The only thing I think you really have to go on is the brother's conviction.

See if you can find out what exactly was involved.

Other than that, I think you're going to have an extremely hard time convincing a judge to award you primary physical custody.

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Quoting Dogmatique

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Other than that, I think you're going to have an extremely hard time convincing a judge to award you primary physical custody.

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Thank you for your feedback, I am finally meeting with attorney tomorrow and this has helped immensely, I will update prudently when possible.

What is getting me is that the most important criteria used in resolving these cases is referred to as "the best interest of the child". How is this not a comparative judgment (best v. worst) of the future on the court's part, and assuming I can provide evidence in numerous ways that the situation I can provide him is an 8 or 9 on the scale of 1-10 and hers is a 4, if that, how would that not be a factor in determining custody?

As this situation is only a week old (and won't be too much older by the time motions are filed), hence the rawness of my emotion expressed earlier, I find it hard to see a judge considering the temporary residency at her brother's home to be the status quo, when prior to that, we lived together for two years, and in the third year went through the pregnancy together, and took care of the child together in our home and she voluntarily moved with me to NJ, changing her address, etc... all while not once mentioning this newly discovered "paternity issue". At any point after his birth she could have made this dispute of paternity and move to her brother's house, however it was apparent she felt living in my home was in the "best interest" of the child (or somebody) until such time as we actually moved, a move that has been planned since the beginning of the pregnancy and that which planning included her full involvement. I feel I must have some "status quo" maintenance advantage on my side as well. I feel if I challenged her in court the same way you are challenging me, that may result in very revealing testimony.

Hello, a sad update and a few more questions. :(

We went to court and she showed up with no lawyer, my attorney spoke to her, and she agreed to take the test at a nearby "retail franchise" lab that she suggested, and have an hour of visitation afterward - the Judge signed off on this and off we went. The test result came back a week or so ago excluding me as the father. I am currently doing "due diligence" and asking the lab a lot of questions about procedure, etc...

They are generally being very helpful, and while a large part of me wants to move on to the next step and then move on for good, a larger part of me wants to compel a re-test (which right to do I reserved in the signed court order). So far no smoking guns regarding the test itself (they are still looking into it, and gradually responding to my questions) but a couple of troubling items regarding procedure and of course the fact that she chose the lab and I don't trust her.

Paternity Test Questions.

1. With the reservation for a second test included in the court order, can my lawyer basically ask her to go in for it without a second court order? Does this basically depend on how cooperative she wants to be? Can I choose a blood test, rather than swab, this time, if I don't trust that she refrained from feeding him an hour prior or something? Can I request she be tested as well this time?

(I noted he was not hungry at all throughout the test period or the one hour visit period, which if she followed directions would have been 3-4 hours since his last feeding. She would have gotten home from the court by 10am or later at the earliest and the test was taken at 11:30am. Also the lab test person told me it was ok to smoke within an hour before the test, when the actual lab website says don't smoke and don't even drink coffee that day, which I did prior to knowing the test would be performed that day. Obviously part of that was my mistake, but I went off the advice of a so called professional - these factors along with a couple other little suspicious elements and of course my own emotion are driving me to request a second test)

2. Is there any general statistic for second tests of the same alleged father - child having different results? I assume there must be some variation statistically, I just want to know if it is at all significant. I have been looking for this statistic but have not found anything yet.

Non-Father Questions:

1. As many in my situation sadly know and as discussed earlier there is no "Criminal Paternity Fraud" criminal statute which is ridiculous because it is one of the most cruel and harmful types of fraud there is. However all of the elements and actions of paternity fraud in my case, and I am sure others, are criminal, and reviewing the criminal code, I came up with the following list of applicable statutes:

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§ 3304. Criminal mischief.
(a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of criminal
mischief if he:

(3) intentionally or recklessly causes another to suffer
pecuniary loss by deception or threat;

Grading.--Criminal mischief is a felony of the third
degree if the actor intentionally causes pecuniary loss in
excess of $5,000,

Self-explanatory application


§ 3922. Theft by deception.
(a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of theft if he
intentionally obtains property of another by
deception. A person deceives if he intentionally:

(1) creates or reinforces a false impression, including
false impressions as to law, value, intention or other state
of mind


(3) fails to correct a false impression which the
deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the
deceiver knows to be influencing another to whom he stands in
a fiduciary or confidential relationship.

Self Explanatory Application - including accomplices/conspirators who have admitted they knew of the paternity question from day 1, but actively and enthusiastically participated in charade

4114. Forgery - Securing execution of documents by deception.


Forgery is a felony of the third
degree if the writing is or purports to be a document evidencing, creating, transferring, altering, terminating, or
otherwise affecting legal relations.

Affirmation of paternity - my signature

§ 4104. Tampering with records or identification.
(a) Writings.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the first
degree if, knowing that he has no privilege to do so, he
conceals any writing or record, with intent to deceive or injure anyone or to conceal any wrongdoing.

Concealed birth certificate from me, stating that for some reason it was not issued yet and then later telling me I was not on it, until I finally got my copy and found out I was

§ 4114. Securing execution of documents by deception.
A person commits a misdemeanor of the second degree if by
deception he causes another to execute any instrument affecting
or purporting to affect or likely to affect the pecuniary
interest of any person.

Affirmation of Paternity again

§ 4903. False swearing.
(a) False swearing in official matters.--A person who makes
a false statement under oath or equivalent affirmation, or
swears or affirms the truth of such a statement previously made,
when he does not believe the statement to be true is guilty of a
misdemeanor of the second degree if:
(1) the falsification occurs in an official proceeding;
or
(2) the falsification is intended to mislead a public
servant in performing his official function.
(b) Other false swearing.--A person who makes a false
statement under oath or equivalent affirmation, or swears or
affirms the truth of such a statement previously made, when he
does not believe the statement to be true, is guilty of a
misdemeanor of the third degree, if the statement is one which
is required by law to be sworn or affirmed before a notary or
other person authorized to administer oaths

Her signature on affirmation of paternity.

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My attorney is going to introduce me to an ADA after our next court date to disestablish my paternity, pending the second test. I am hoping to get any of these charges to stick against the mother and possibly other members of her family, as conspirators, or accomplices, who now admit being aware of the paternity question from conception, however have actively carried on the charade with me and my family and friends until recently. I am hoping for a plea bargain on her part and hopefully a member or two of her family's part for probation and restitution via garnishment.

As there appear to be no laws regarding garnishment of a civil suit penalty in PA, it seems futile and costly to even try that road.

I know my ability to prevail here is unlikely, however I feel it necessary to at least try to hold her accountable, if it's a dead end, I 'll wait til I hit it to find out. I also feel it's important on both the state and national level for people in my situation to keep pushing the system to act on it's own laws on the books.

However the one thing that might improve my chances is an argument that she never had a reasonable justification for considering me the father at all due to the date of conception. I was wondering if anyone can speak to that difference between deception based on a 50-50 toss-up and deception based on a 100% certainty, and whether the civil or criminal or family courts have ever made any determination based on that difference.

The biggest problem you have is proving intent.

The burden is on you and that would appear to be nigh on impossible from everything you've written here.

A material mistake of fact does not constitute, for example, criminal mischief.

I truly think you're headed down the wrong path and you're inviting even more pain and possible financial problems into your life. I do not think pursuing this is in your best interest, and certainly not in the best interest of the child.

I understand that you want to see Mom punished, but the chances of any criminal charge being filed are slim at best, and the chances of a conviction - simply based upon what you've said here - are, I believe, virtually nil.

You need to focus.

Well, if I can't go criminal, there is no reason to go civil. I want Mom accountable and possibly restitution - if those things "punish her" I am not going to lose any sleep. Not sure how I'd be causing financial problems for myself by going criminal, I don't pay the DA (particularly now that I live in a different state). The best interest of the child (or any other human being) is in being as far away from that woman and that family as possible. I might have also just discovered the father, whom the mother is purposefully shielding the existence of his child from. Chances are unless the father is Hitler, Jr. he and his family will probably be able to provide better for the child. I bear him no grudge at this point, and think he deserves to know about his child and assert his rights, and likewise the child deserves to have a relationship with his father. And of course, his taking a paternity test will basically answer my question as to whether I need to take another one.

As to intent, I am not sure what I need to do to prove the burden. However when someone takes manifestly criminal actions, don't those actions negate the need for intent? If I stab a guy 75 times, they don't need to ask me about my intent, if I steal a bunch of diamonds or blow up a building, they do not need to ask me about intent. The act is already performed and there is clear evidence she performed the act and reaped the benefit, there is no suspicion that she committed these acts, she in fact did commit them and the evidence is manifest and clearly apparent.

Point is, as I said before, I asked her point blank at conception whether the child was mine, and she lied and absolutely said it was. That lie was not a mistake of fact, it was an intentional act to conceal a fact, to compel me to act in the way she wanted me to. The affirmation of paternity which she signed is another point of "fraud". The lie in and of itself is more than enough, considering that "omissions" are also considered criminally deceptive in most of these cases.

Like I said I just need a couple of the charges to be pressed to compel her to plead out, in exchange for probation and restitution. I am not anticipating a "Law & Order" scene here. If I can get one other family member (and I agree that is where intent might come into play) involved as well, I get a bit more accountability and a bit faster restitution.

I understand to an extent you are schooling me on how the system works, and you are probably right, but I believe that paternity fraud should be a crime, even more-so of course now that I am a victim, and believe that any victim owes it to future victims to try to move the ball down-field in compelling the criminal courts to prosecute it as such.

So I'll give it a shot, and so should anyone else in this situation.

edit, also your criminal mischief example is lacking because as it says:

"recklessly causes another to suffer
pecuniary loss by deception"

No need to prove intent, though I probably can.

You can debate this all day long...but the bottom line is that no DA is going to charge her. It's NOT going to happen. I know that's not what you want to hear, but it's the cold hard fact.

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Quoting aardvarc

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You can debate this all day long...but the bottom line is that no DA is going to charge her. It's NOT going to happen. I know that's not what you want to hear, but it's the cold hard fact.

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Again, it's worth it to keep pushing in these type of cases. If the DA decides not to charge her, leaving me with no effective recourse, that is unfortunate, particularly because I have been humiliated enough in this case already, that it is no real problem for me in that case to publicize, via letter to the editor or some other way, that the DA has unilaterally decided that women in this situation have immunity from prosecution, and that the implication of this is that the best thing to do if you are a 'single' guy with a pregnant girlfriend is rather than trust her and assist her through the pregnancy and take responsibility for your child, is to immediately abandon her until paternity testing can be performed.

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It is realistically a 50-50, we were sexually active during the time of his conception

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Q1: After child's birth, xgf and I signed numerous documents, including those affirming my paternity.

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Here's the problem. By your own admission, it was possible that were the father. You signed affirming paternity, while you KNEW that it was only a probability. Your eagerness to claim the child, without exercising the prudence to KNOW it was YOUR child, isn't fraud on mom's part and doesn't come anywhere close to the universe of criminal intent, it's only poor judgement (on BOTH of you). THAT is why no criminal charges will be forthcoming.

Only in cases of marriage is there a presumption of paternity; short of that it requires that either (a) the father WILLINGLY step up as the father and acknowledge, as you did, or, (b) that a court assign paternity. When children are made out of wedlock, from a legal standpoint there isn't a presumption of monogamy (if you like it then you shoulda put a ring on it), so signing to affirm paternity without testing for that fact FIRST might be exhillerating, romantic, or feel like the right thing to do in the moment of joy of new parenthood, but from a legal standpoint, it's sheer stupidity and leads to the exact situations that flood into this board every day.

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Quoting Sucker in PA?

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Again, it's worth it to keep pushing in these type of cases. If the DA decides not to charge her, leaving me with no effective recourse, that is unfortunate, particularly because I have been humiliated enough in this case already, that it is no real problem for me in that case to publicize, via letter to the editor or some other way, that the DA has unilaterally decided that women in this situation have immunity from prosecution, and that the implication of this is that the best thing to do if you are a 'single' guy with a pregnant girlfriend is rather than trust her and assist her through the pregnancy and take responsibility for your child, is to immediately abandon her until paternity testing can be performed.

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Are you willing to spend $100k and the next five years defending a lawsuit which will leave you broke and even more embarrassed?

(and perhaps paying off a huge settlement....)

Move on.

You've said pretty clearly that if the child isn't yours biologically, that you want to relinquish the responsibility. You don't have to do that legally, since the documents make you legally the father. You've chosen to pursue the question of biological paternity. That's neither right nor wrong, but it was your choice. If you wanted to continue to take responsibility, the course was to ignore the question of biology and proceed as the child's legal father.

So certainly investigate the test and convince yourself of its accuracy. Even one chance in a thousand isn't something you want to let go of yet. (I don't know if there's that great a chance of an error. Just an example.) But beyond that, get the issue of legal paternity straight and move on. And best of luck.

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Quoting Sucker in PA?

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I asked her point blank at conception whether the child was mine, and she lied and absolutely said it was. That lie was not a mistake of fact, it was an intentional act to conceal a fact

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Perhaps. But perhaps she wanted the child to be yours just as much as you did. People often tell untruths not because we intend to deceive but because we have strong emotional investment in the outcome.

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I have been humiliated enough in this case already

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Humiliation isn't resolved by proving someone else is bad or wrong. Humiliation is an emotion that comes from you, not from someone else. If you're having problems with the sense of humiliation, you should seek a counselor. A good one can help a lot. All the legal advice, and legal action, in the world isn't going to help with that.

Edward

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Here's the problem. By your own admission, it was possible that were the father. You signed affirming paternity, while you KNEW that it was only a probability. Your eagerness to claim the child, without exercising the prudence to KNOW it was YOUR child, isn't fraud on mom's part and doesn't come anywhere close to the universe of criminal intent, it's only poor judgement (on BOTH of you). THAT is why no criminal charges will be forthcoming.

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Wrong, by the stated affirmation of someone who had a duty to tell the truth, I believed totally that I was the father. I was living with this person for two years proceeding, cared for her a lot despite her problems and tried to help her with those at enormous sacrifice to myself. It is in fact criminal, because I quoted criminal statutes that state that it is and the only reason no charges will be forthcoming is because the system is rotten on this issue. Any other fraud that would fit into the categories of the statutes I cited would be investigated and prosecuted with much less evidence than I can present. My signature on the affirmation of paternity was honest from my part and based on a deception on her part. She was the only person who signed that affirmation knowing she had no business doing so. But you are right, "single" fathers who think they are in a trusting relationship should be more careful and simply abandon their pregnant partners upon conception and not offer an ounce of financial or emotional support until scientific tests are taken. Great world that would be.

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Are you willing to spend $100k and the next five years defending a lawsuit

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Again this makes no sense, if the DA agrees to the charges I am not legally liable, it's not even "my" case. I am not filing a civil suit because she is judgment proof in that forum. If I can get criminal charges filed I will take what accountability and/or wage garnished restitution I can get. You are going to have to explain where this $100K is coming from, no push for prosecution on my part would be malicious, it would be based on facts.

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You've said pretty clearly that if the child isn't yours biologically, that you want to relinquish the responsibility. You don't have to do that legally, since the documents make you legally the father. You've chosen to pursue the question of biological paternity. That's neither right nor wrong, but it was your choice. If you wanted to continue to take responsibility, the course was to ignore the question of biology and proceed as the child's legal father.

So certainly investigate the test and convince yourself of its accuracy. Even one chance in a thousand isn't something you want to let go of yet. (I don't know if there's that great a chance of an error. Just an example.) But beyond that, get the issue of legal paternity straight and move on. And best of luck.

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The child was removed from my home with no forewarning, I did not want to relinquish anything about the child. However if I am not the bio dad, I have very little grounds for doing what is in the best interest of the child, getting him away from his awful mother on a permanent basis, and spending the next eighteen years fighting with her disgusting family over a child that is not mine - is neither a good use of my time and will result in nothing positive for the child. Hopefully the biological dad, or his family, have something resembling sanity and values and can provide the child with better than she can. Once I can confirm I've identified the bio dad, and he knows this witch deprived him of a child and all the moments with that child so far, I hope he makes the same efforts I was intending to make.

I am then going to move on and I appreciate your wish for good luck.

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Perhaps. But perhaps she wanted the child to be yours just as much as you did. People often tell untruths not because we intend to deceive but because we have strong emotional investment in the outcome.

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Sorry but this whole phrase is Oprah-grade horse-sh*t, as one of my favorite bands song goes "They lie to hide the truth", and the investment in the outcome is another word for "scam".

An honest, decent or relatively honest, decent woman would tell the truth at conception, and sleep alone in the bed she made. A dishonest pig would deceive the person who showed them so much love, and his family which did the same into thinking they had a child and grandchild, and forming a bond with that child, and then rip it all out from under them. This is a black and white issue.

If I started a thread about my girlfriend conceiving and my lack of absolute scientific proof of my responsibility for that conception being the basis by which I, her sole support, was basically going to abandon her and let her go through the pregnancy alone, I am sooo sure you would all be thunderously applauding my legal acumen.

I was referring to going to the press and making blanket statements which would be patently false. Defamation actions are incredibly expensive to defend against.

I honestly have no idea what else you can gain from this thread; I understand that you didn't like the (legally accurate, no matter how much you think we're wrong and disagree) answers you received, but this isn't really the right place to simply come and vent.

(There IS another area of the forum for that)

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Quoting Dogmatique

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I was referring to going to the press and making blanket statements which would be patently false. Defamation actions are incredibly expensive to defend against.

I honestly have no idea what else you can gain from this thread; I understand that you didn't like the (legally accurate, no matter how much you think we're wrong and disagree) answers you received, but this isn't really the right place to simply come and vent.

(There IS another area of the forum for that)

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I am quite capable of writing without defamation. And to be honest I agree with your second paragraph. Throughout this thread, I have asked advice on trying to do the things I am trying to do, and get useful answers to my questions. I am not getting either here, and my venting is a response to the baiting of the unhelpful respondents. Rather than explaining how I would navigate the legal process to accomplish the things I am trying to do, I am getting cynical answers about how my rights, my sacrifice, my injury by this situation do not matter in the eyes of the law. That point was made the first time, and certainly by the fifth time. The constant repetition thereafter that it is wrong and stupid for me to seek justice for being wronged does not constitute helpful advice.

If one of you is a mod go ahead and delete.

Sigh.

You've kept on going even though we're trying to tell you (and can we seriously ALL be wrong here? Really?) to save not only your dignity but your wallet too.

We get that you want Mom punished.

What you're not seeming to get is that it's just not going to happen the way you want, in this lifetime.

You will end up exhausted emotionally, financially and with nothing gained other than more bitterness and pain and what is even worse (to you), Mom still won't be any worse off than she is now.

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Quoting Sucker in PA?

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that it is wrong and stupid for me to seek justice for being wronged does not constitute helpful advice.

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Perhaps not, but it IS legally sound advice. If you'd like us to blow smoke up your fanny and tell you that you'll prevail 100%, that all you need to do is file Form A, Form B, and Motion for X Y or Z in order to get what you want, your expections are woefully overblown. If it were that easy, Doggie most certainly would have pointed you in that direction from the get go. We're not getting paid by the hour, nor do we have any vested interest in the outcome or yours or any other posters cases...we try to answer as accurately and succently as possible. We can't control that situations are what they are, nor do most posters bother to seek assistance BEFORE they make decisions and choices that result in the plights that bring them here after the fact. But do feel free to plunk down a wad of cash as a retainer to have an army of attorneys draw up any motions you'd like...as well a responding to motions from the other side, so long as you're paying, you'll have no problem finding several that are happy to take "busy work" at the hourly rate. But while that time, effort, and cost may give you a sense of control, or hope that somehow the basic principles of family law will suddenly change overnight, it won't change the legal facts that you'd be asking the court to address - and you've been given an accurate overview of how both the criminal justice system and the family courts will view the issue.

The legal reality is that courts, criminal or civil, can't solve all problems that people manage to get themselves into. Nor do all bad decisions or lack of self protection suddenly transform people who find themselves in predicaments into legal victims.

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Quoting aardvarc

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that all you need to do is file Form A, Form B, and Motion for X Y or Z in order to get

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It may come as a shock to the posters here self-importance, but actually all I wanted to know was practical information, process, precedent, etc... I hired a good lawyer to guide me through this strategy, and posted here to ask for help as to what to expect, and what to do in situation x,y, z, etc..

Again, the reality check is fine the first few times, but since the laws are on the books to do what I wanted to do in terms of first custody, then unfortunately paternity, a lot more useful information would have been appreciative, rather than the cross examination I received.

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But do feel free to plunk down a wad of cash as a retainer to have an army of attorneys draw up any motions you'd like...as well a responding to motions from the other side, so long as you're paying, you'll have no problem finding several that are happy to take "busy work" at the hourly rate.

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Again, I stated myself I am not going through any civil process because I concede it's a waste of money, which is why I am going to try, and fail maybe, but try to seek accountability and restitution through the criminal process.

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The legal reality is that courts, criminal or civil, can't solve all problems that people manage to get themselves into. Nor do all bad decisions or lack of self protection suddenly transform people who find themselves in predicaments into legal victims.

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Again the criminal code has specific statutes on the books that directly address the situation I am in, whether I was taken by a pregnant woman or any other kind of huckster.

Again, I ask you all to reread your own lines and confirm that if you are a legally "single" guy in a committed relationship and you are told by your partner that the child is yours, and that she is completely faithful to you, that they best thing to do is abandon the woman completely until DNA proves the matter, because if it is not yours, you have no rights, and no protection from fraud, while the woman enjoys blanket immunity from prosecution despite the fact that what she did violates the law and the evidence of that violation is manifest and apparent.

That what I and my family did, by supporting her through the whole pregnancy and first few months of the child's life was stupid, wrong and ill-advised, and that what I and my family are suffering just does not count.

We are a society (which includes the legal profession and judicial system) that claims to value the role the father plays and try to make sure the father is held responsible for playing it. Paternity fraud is criminal fraud, and the fact that it is not treated that way is as disgusting as the women who perpetrate it, and those who apologize for it. It is the very definition of a perverse incentive.

This will be my last post probably. To those who did occasionally answer my questions concisely, thank you.

The one thing I learned from all this confirms what I knew about myself prior, that I would be able to handle fatherhood and would love every minute of it which I did. Now I guess I just need to find an un-crazy person and have my own kid. At least I'll be a great, if not a bit mistrustful, pregnancy coach when that happens.

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Quoting Sucker in PA?

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It may come as a shock to the posters here self-importance, but actually all I wanted to know was practical information, process, precedent, etc... I hired a good lawyer to guide me through this strategy, and posted here to ask for help as to what to expect, and what to do in situation x,y, z, etc..

Again, the reality check is fine the first few times, but since the laws are on the books to do what I wanted to do in terms of first custody, then unfortunately paternity, a lot more useful information would have been appreciative, rather than the cross examination I received.

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Re-read your own thread.

This is NOTHING compared to court.

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Again, I stated myself I am not going through any civil process because I concede it's a waste of money, which is why I am going to try, and fail maybe, but try to seek accountability and restitution through the criminal process.

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You will fail.

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Again the criminal code has specific statutes on the books that directly address the situation I am in, whether I was taken by a pregnant woman or any other kind of huckster.

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The problem is you cannot prove a darned thing in terms of criminal fraud.

I realize you won't/can't accept that, but it doesn't make it any less true.

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Again, I ask you all to reread your own lines and confirm that if you are a legally "single" guy in a committed relationship and you are told by your partner that the child is yours, and that she is completely faithful to you, that they best thing to do is abandon the woman completely until DNA proves the matter, because if it is not yours, you have no rights, and no protection from fraud, while the woman enjoys blanket immunity from prosecution despite the fact that what she did violates the law and the evidence of that violation is manifest and apparent.

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Why didn't you get a DNA test at the time?

The question is probably moot.

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That what I and my family did, by supporting her through the whole pregnancy and first few months of the child's life was stupid, wrong and ill-advised, and that what I and my family are suffering just does not count.

We are a society (which includes the legal profession and judicial system) that claims to value the role the father plays and try to make sure the father is held responsible for playing it. Paternity fraud is criminal fraud, and the fact that it is not treated that way is as disgusting as the women who perpetrate it, and those who apologize for it. It is the very definition of a perverse incentive.

This will be my last post probably. To those who did occasionally answer my questions concisely, thank you.

The one thing I learned from all this confirms what I knew about myself prior, that I would be able to handle fatherhood and would love every minute of it which I did. Now I guess I just need to find an un-crazy person and have my own kid. At least I'll be a great, if not a bit mistrustful, pregnancy coach when that happens.

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Don't forget that DNA test...

..unless you marry Potential Mommy first.
:cool:

At least attempt to file your police report for fraud either (a) in the blazing middle of the day, or (b) on a Friday or Saturday night - at least that way the officer will get either a break from the heat or a break from the hustle of the weekend madness. In return for giving the officer such a break, be prepared to hear this phrase "it's a civil matter, you need to take it to family court". The officer isn't even going to take their pen out, much less consider putting this complaint on paper for forwarding to the DA for criminal charges.

In a lot of agencies, an officer wouldn't even be sent to tell you it's a matter for civil family court - the dispatcher would just tell you right off the bat that it's not a criminal matter, and an officer would only be sent to deliver that message in person if you put up a huge fuss. But the result would be the same. The criminal justice system isn't going to touch this with a ten foot pole. It's just not. That you made a baby out of wedlock with someone and now dispute paternity is NOT a criminal justice matter. Even if.

But hey, it's a free phone call, and police even work 24/7/365 - so call at your earliest convenience and then you can move on from this aspect.

This horse is so dead it's starting to stink.

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I have heard rumors, but if you can prove one way "worst" and another way "best" isn't "best" in the best interest of the child, not "worst", not "medicore"?

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No. I'm afraid you are approaching this like a moral equation and because the answer seems so clear to you, you truly are not comprehending the excellent answers that Dogmatique is giving you. You must let go of the scale you've established for best (financially stable, no unsavory relatives in close proximity) and worst (poor money decisions, crappy family). The court does not operate based on such a scale (custody would turn into a bidding war). You could show a three hour film with footage of all your ex's horrible life decisions ending with the currently crappy living situation and follow this with a tour of your home, bank statements, affadavits about your character, and tox screens of all your relatives and it would not matter. You're not challenging someone's right to practice medicine or drive a car, you're challenging their right to keep and raise their own child as they see fit and the court is careful not to equate modest financial means or even poverty with fitness.

Every day the child is in your ex's custody without formal complaint or investigation is evidence that she is fit and the situation acceptable (even if not optimal). Imagine if the tables were turned and someone were able to come in and document your relationship with your ex and characterized you as delusional for spending large amounts of time and money in an aimless un-reciprocal relationship and present it as iron-clad evidence of your poor judgement and unfitness to raise a child. What if someone presented to the court your inability to seek and maintain a relationship with a woman of equal intellect and means as evidence of your perennial low self-esteem and cited the likelihood that you will repeat this pattern and endanger the child by subjecting it to your new girlfriend's crappy relatives? What if someone decided that your failure to have a television, refusal to play classical music, and desire to work on model trains constantly was evidence that you cannot provide a home with sufficient stimulation and enrichment to raise a child? As ridiculous and infuriating as these scenarios may sound to you, that is exactly how the allegations you've recounted would play in court.

Courts don't grant custody to the parent that can provide the softest bed and the best food--it's not a means test. I'm not arguing that your situation is not better (it may well be), but "best interest" to the court means, in the absence of proof of harm, at most shared custody with the existing primary caregiver remaining the primary custodian and visitation for the other parent.

In other words, ditto what Dogmatique said.

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Quoting BrownCowgirl

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No. I'm afraid you are approaching this like a moral equation and because the answer seems so .

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A bit late to the game, see my updates above, but thanks for the input anyway.

For an update, my paternity has been formally disestablished, the affirmation of paternity rescinded, which I am grateful for despite the heavy costs, as I have read so many horror stories. My advice to any prospective father - No affirmation without a DNA test, no matter what. Trusting your partner is a costly mistake.

Because the mother was married at the time of the AOP, she signed it in clear violation of the law stated on the form, both based on marital status and swearing I was the father - of course as others have said, she will never be prosecuted - but I am curious as to whether I can file a complaint based on that, and at least rattle her cage that way?

Also, it appears the bio father and his family is going to use her marital status to try to seek to trip her up as she makes a support claim against him, with PA's presumption of paternity to the husband (who she hasn't seen in 5 years). This is actually somewhat disappointing to me in terms of the child's best interests as one of the main factors influencing me to disestablish was a previous representation by this family that they would be involved. I am sure they will be compelled to be eventually anyway, but given the mother's legal savvy that could take years. I am kind of curious as to whether the long-lost husband's presumption of paternity will preclude any action against the bio-father.

As for me, having gone this far and having paid this much anyway, I decided to take a day in court in order to have a judge hear me out on some level of damages/judgement. At this point it can't hurt, at the very least I can have my say on the record, and should I receive any level of judgement for legal bills ($10K), expenses supporting her during the fraud ($15K) or whatever, I can put it in my back-pocket, do the minimum to keep it "in force" so on the off-chance the mother ever turns her life around, I can destroy it. That's what passes for justice in these situations, I guess. Even if I can't collect until years from now, and don't need the money, I think I would want my need for justice satisfied, and would just donate the money to a children's charity or something.

With some distance, I do thank you all for your advice, and have read many other entries on this site as regards judgement collection (she has already been ordered to reimburse me for the paternity test and court filing fees) that has been very helpful. My family and I are doing as well as can be expected.

My general take-away from the legal standpoint is that paternity fraud should be prosecuted as any other criminal fraud, as a misdemeanor, so that the "father" who does the "right thing" that society wants him to do, has the backing of the state to protect him in these cases and assist him in seeking restitution. As well, I believe the participants in perpetuating the fraud and usually indirectly benefits from it, i.e. the mother's family, should also be held accountable so that restitution comes from the greatest amount of sources.

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Quoting aardvarc

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The legal reality is that courts, criminal or civil, can't solve all problems that people manage to get themselves into. Nor do all bad decisions or lack of self protection suddenly transform people who find themselves in predicaments into legal victims.

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I want this as my new signature line. It's PERFECT!

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Quoting Sucker in PA?

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As for me, having gone this far and having paid this much anyway, I decided to take a day in court in order to have a judge hear me out on some level of damages/judgement. At this point it can't hurt, at the very least I can have my say on the record, and should I receive any level of judgement for legal bills ($10K), expenses supporting her during the fraud ($15K) or whatever, I can put it in my back-pocket, do the minimum to keep it "in force" so on the off-chance the mother ever turns her life around, I can destroy it. That's what passes for justice in these situations, I guess. Even if I can't collect until years from now, and don't need the money, I think I would want my need for justice satisfied, and would just donate the money to a children's charity or something.

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Not legal advice:

You are going to end up a very bitter, lonely person if you insist on continuing through life with this mindset.

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Quoting Dogmatique

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Not legal advice:

You are going to end up a very bitter, lonely person if you insist on continuing through life with this mindset.

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This isn't my 'mindset' towards anyone else except the person that wronged me, and by extension my family which infuriates me all the more. I am not lonely - good friends, great family and coworkers - all understanding. And while I won't deny the bitterness now, it's fading, thank you.

Here is my non-legal, but philosophical question:

I would be curious, as the most active responder in this thread, what, if any justice a person in my situation should get? None, I presume?

What accountability should there be for worthless shitheads like my ex? Should I presume, also none?

Please explain why this type of fraud, with all the elements of fraud, is not in fact fraud.

I hope I get a judgment. If I do, I'll enforce it someday. I will hold her accountable, can you explain why in your opinion I am apparently insane, a sick, sad person for wanting that?

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Quoting Sucker in PA?

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This isn't my 'mindset' towards anyone else except the person that wronged me, and by extension my family which infuriates me all the more. I am not lonely - good friends, great family and coworkers - all understanding. And while I won't deny the bitterness now, it's fading, thank you.

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What I don't think you're realizing is that you are simply continuing the cycle of frustration and anger, and by extension hurting your family, yourself. I'm glad the bitterness is beginning to fade though. However, that wasn't my point.

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Here is my non-legal, but philosophical question:

I would be curious, as the most active responder in this thread, what, if any justice a person in my situation should get? None, I presume?

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Justice for....you being foolish enough to sign paternity papers without the benefit of DNA testing? Well, since both of you were remiss in that department - and specially since you have been removed as father (and hence have no further obligation to mother OR child) - the matter is now fixed.

My personal thoughts? You have yet to prove that she actually acted with deliberate and malicious intent. We've already been through this. A simple, "Your honor, I honestly thought he WAS the father" would put the matter to bed.

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What accountability should there be for worthless shitheads like my ex? Should I presume, also none?

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You picked the worthless shithead. Not a legal matter, though. If it's any consolation, I do find that worthless shitheads tend to get theirs in the end.

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Please explain why this type of fraud, with all the elements of fraud, is not in fact fraud.

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We've gone over this. The horse has been in the glue factory for several months.

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I hope I get a judgment. If I do, I'll enforce it someday. I will hold her accountable, can you explain why in your opinion I am apparently insane, a sick, sad person for wanting that?

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LOL I don't think you're insane (then again I'm not qualified to say either way).

However, I think it's extremely unhealthy to be so intent on ruining someone's life like that. Especially when you yourself bear at least some responsibility for the entire mess.

I honestly cannot see any court ordering Mom to repay anything else other than what has already been ordered.

Again, your arguments would work against just about any other fraud conceivable, and most any other fraud conceivable is criminal. In PA specifically, I did some research other than jawing with you folks, cases have held that OMISSION of the disclosure of an affair, of another potential father is enough to constitute such fraud. Barring that, remember my post earlier where she actually made a verbal representation above and beyond omitting the affair.

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Please explain why this type of fraud, with all the elements of fraud, is not in fact fraud.

"We've gone over this. The horse has been in the glue factory for several months. "

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And you have given me the way the system works unfortunately. You're right, I appreciate that, however now lets get academic, or Hebraic. Why is this fraud different than any other fraud?

If I make false representations to you, or withhold information from you, because I know you are going to respond a certain way, and you do, and I gain by it, and you lose by it - This is fraud, it is not considered a personal matter any more than burglary (you were flaunting jewels), murder (you were walking down a dark alley) or rape (you were wearing a short skirt) is, the victim is not considered responsible for any bad decision-making that may have led to their victim-hood, except in this case. Why? From an "expert law" point of view?

Why is Paternity Fraud equal to Justifiable Homicide in your opinion?

What other frauds are exceptions? Just this one?

"Your honor, I honestly thought he WAS the father" - the ex
"Your honor, I honestly thought this WAS my money" - Bernie Madoff

Excuses can only go so far as credibility allows.

Or as Keyshawn Johnson says.....C'mooon man (ma'am)

Again provided a judgment, ruining her life is the only justice the system may allow me here - I'll take it. If they treated this fraud like fraud, I could have a criminal case, where I don't have to pay a lawyer, where I am immediately wiped from the AOP/BC because I am the victim, where accomplices are also charged, and where restitution is paid and collected by the state. I would prefer that to this. It's not in my interest to try to enforce the judgment every day, so I will have to keep it in force until she has something, and then take that. Why would you have a problem with that, where you wouldn't have a problem with that in any other fraud situation?

I am genuinely curious.

Why not let the police explain it when you attempt to file a criminal fraud report? We've explained it every way under the sun. The bottom line is that you made a baby out of wedlock - that means that you have no legal expectation of monogamy. If you wanted the protections of a marriage contract, you should have created a marriage (ie a civil marriage contract). The father of that child could have been any name in the phonebook and you had NO legal ground to anticipate otherwise, since there was no marriage involved. Marriage is a legal contract that spells out rights and responsibilities. Even Bernie Madhoff's clients had a right to expect certain behaviors and protections, because he was a licensed investment advisor. There was a legal expectation of a level of accountability. He didn't get in trouble because he lost his client's money....he got in trouble because he violated his legal obligations on several levels. Legally, instead of investing with a licensed broker, you chose to deal with a back alley guy. Both can loose you the same money. But only one of those is going to be seen as a criminal fraud...the other is a "gambling loss". You chose not to go that route and thus waived rights (including the right to expect and be treated as monogamous). That you then signed the birth certificate without getting a DNA test was your choice. And sadly, like a great many men who make babies first and think about it later, you ended up on the short end of your own decision making. Playing house isn't the same legal thing as being married. Watch an afternoon of Judge Judy. You'll hear all about the pitfalls of ACTING married or trying to hold another person AS IF they were a spouse, when you haven't bothered to cover that little detail of ACTUALLY marrying them. Although you BOTH may have moral shortcomings, this isn't going to be pursued as a criminal fraud case. Moral wrongs and CRIMINAL wrongs are NOT the same thing. Lots of things are morally reprehensible, but still legal. Period. End of. Even if. Go ask a cop to take a report. When he turns you down, go ask the DA to file charges. When that doesn't work, write to your Congressman. Then take it to the Supreme Court. The answer isn't going to change. And, the justice system isn't going to buy into your idea that ruining her life will provide justice for you. The courts hold that the needs of the child to have their parent outweigh the needs of the vindictive ex. Now that the child has an established father, the courts don't care about EITHER of you at this point. The courts only care about the child. Which isn't yours, removing all influence regarding you from the matter.

Start therapy, ASAP.

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Quoting aardvarc

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Why not let the police explain it when you attempt to file a criminal fraud report? We've explained it every way under the sun.

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I know that criminal law won't prosecute this fraud, I am asking for perspective here, an attempt at a reasonable explanation why not.

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The bottom line is that you made a baby out of wedlock

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Actually the bottom line is that I didn't. Do pay attention.

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If you wanted the protections of a marriage contract, you should have created a marriage (ie a civil marriage contract).

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I would have actually been more screwed in this situation, and with the same amount of remedies.

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Even Bernie Madhoff's clients had a right to expect certain behaviors and protections, because he was a licensed investment advisor. There was a legal expectation of a level of accountability. He didn't get in trouble because he lost his client's money....he got in trouble because he violated his legal obligations on several levels.

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This all goes to the duty to inform and tell the truth, regardless of whether a licensing body is involved or not.

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That you then signed the birth certificate without getting a DNA test was your choice.

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Based on omissions and misrepresentations made by a person with an interest in me acting on the same. Fraud. There is even a statute on the PA books that speaks specifically to inducement by omission or misrepresentation to compel someone to sign a legal document under the forgery statutes.

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Watch an afternoon of Judge Judy.

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Apparently this is what qualified you to give legal advice here.

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Moral wrongs and CRIMINAL wrongs are NOT the same thing. Lots of things are morally reprehensible, but still legal.

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Fraud is both a moral and criminal wrong, like robbery, murder and rape, and 100 other things. By both omitting the material fact of the affair as well as making a verbal representation regarding my status, in order to induce me to act in a certain way to her benefit, she committed fraud. The only reason it is not being treated that way is because it is "this type" of fraud.

What other types may I commit in Pennsylvania?. I could use some quick money.

Again, I know what I'm doing from the legal point of view, I would just like to hear one iota of an intelligent defense of the status quo as regards this type of fraud.

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Quoting Sucker in PA?

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Again, your arguments would work against just about any other fraud conceivable, and most any other fraud conceivable is criminal. In PA specifically, I did some research other than jawing with you folks, cases have held that OMISSION of the disclosure of an affair, of another potential father is enough to constitute such fraud. Barring that, remember my post earlier where she actually made a verbal representation above and beyond omitting the affair.



And you have given me the way the system works unfortunately. You're right, I appreciate that, however now lets get academic, or Hebraic. Why is this fraud different than any other fraud?

If I make false representations to you, or withhold information from you, because I know you are going to respond a certain way, and you do, and I gain by it, and you lose by it - This is fraud, it is not considered a personal matter any more than burglary (you were flaunting jewels), murder (you were walking down a dark alley) or rape (you were wearing a short skirt) is, the victim is not considered responsible for any bad decision-making that may have led to their victim-hood, except in this case. Why? From an "expert law" point of view?

Why is Paternity Fraud equal to Justifiable Homicide in your opinion?

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That's your analogy. Not mine. I'm somewhat disturbed by your train of thought there, actually. I would hope that any rational human would see the obvious and vast difference.

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What other frauds are exceptions? Just this one?

"Your honor, I honestly thought he WAS the father" - the ex
"Your honor, I honestly thought this WAS my money" - Bernie Madoff

Excuses can only go so far as credibility allows.

Or as Keyshawn Johnson says.....C'mooon man (ma'am)

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Please point out where you had a legal expectation of monogamy - like that conferred by marriage. Please show us the contract you and she had that would make your Madhoff analogy even vaguely appropriate.

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Again provided a judgment, ruining her life is the only justice the system may allow me here - I'll take it.

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Which honestly says more about you than it does her. (You're not going to get the judgment, incidentally)

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If they treated this fraud like fraud, I could have a criminal case, where I don't have to pay a lawyer, where I am immediately wiped from the AOP/BC because I am the victim, where accomplices are also charged, and where restitution is paid and collected by the state. I would prefer that to this. It's not in my interest to try to enforce the judgment every day, so I will have to keep it in force until she has something, and then take that. Why would you have a problem with that, where you wouldn't have a problem with that in any other fraud situation?



I am genuinely curious.

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No hon - you now want to argue that being duped - along with your own inaction - is somehow the equivalent of several legitimate and far more serious causes of action.

It ain't happening.

Ah - now I see.


When you're once again told things you don't want to hear, you revert to insulting the volunteers.

No worries, just seeing if either of you could form a substantive, convincing argument as to why the status quo, arbritrary enforcement of the law is acceptable, obviously wasting my time there. Both of you are apologists for this kind of fraud, just wanted to confirm that. It's not actually fraud, just like date rape isn't really rape, because you know, she went into that room trusting, which not only makes the crime vanish, but makes her equally responsible. Got it.

I am sure if a child suffers or dies because of an unknown hereditary condition because it was inconvenient for a slut to tell the truth, that's ok too. No one's fault.