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Neighbor's Sewer Line May Run Through Our Land

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  • 07-29-2010, 11:54 AM
    HomeAddition
    Neighbor's Sewer Line May Run Through Our Land
    I've spent some time reading threads here which apply to easments in WA state. So here's my question. First some background:

    We own a home built in the 1920's. We have good relationships with our neighbors. Our neighbors to the North of us believe their side sewer runs through our land and hooks up with the city sewer on the street to the south of us. They know of no easments. Title searches on our house (when we bought the house and refinanced) showed no easments and searches by ourselves and our architect show no easments when we search city records.

    This is my plan:
    1) Get a locate company to try and locate my sewer and my neighbors'
    2) Get a civil engineer to come out and survey the boundaries and include location of #1 above
    3) Have architect perform as built
    4) Figure our where this addition is going to go-Is it even goign to interfere with my neighbor's sewer.

    If it turns out the neighbor's sewer is on our property and may interfere with where we place our addition I'll just go over to them, let them know our plans and offer to allow them to re-route their sewer (they pay 100%).

    My question: Did this sound legit? Or should I lawyer up now?:( Is there something that I left out? I figure an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!

    Thanks for the help
  • 07-30-2010, 07:42 PM
    LandSurveyor
    Re: Neighbor's Sewer Line May Run Through Our Land
    Quote:

    1) Get a locate company to try and locate my sewer and my neighbors'
    An old sewer can be very difficult to locate. It's probably vitreous clay pipe. There are companies which have the high tech equipment to do so, but the cost is very high. The "one call" number in your state will probably decline as it is a private matter on private property.

    Quote:

    2) Get a civil engineer to come out and survey the boundaries and include location of #1 above
    In Washington, as in most states, civil engineers cannot perform boundary surveys, determine boundaries, or express an opinion as to a boundary location. Your choice would be a licensed surveyor. But the question is moot because of the difficulty of locating the sewer without digging it up.

    Quote:

    3) Have architect perform as built
    You must be kidding.

    Quote:

    4) Figure our where this addition is going to go-Is it even goign to interfere with my neighbor's sewer.
    I think digging is your only option- get an experienced backhoe operator for this one.

    Quote:

    If it turns out the neighbor's sewer is on our property and may interfere with where we place our addition I'll just go over to them, let them know our plans and offer to allow them to re-route their sewer (they pay 100%).
    You can try that if you wish. Sounds like the line has been in place for many years however and the lack of a recorded easement is likely immaterial at this point. It is likely the neighbor's option to allow you to re-route line line at 100% your expense, if they feel like agreeing to your proposal. If y'all "lawyer up" your neighbor will find this out in the first few minutes with a lawyer.

    Also, "financing" title searches on residential properties today usually go back for only 42 years or so. They would completely miss a valid sewer easement recorded separately in the 1920's.
  • 07-30-2010, 07:48 PM
    Mr. Knowitall
    Re: Neighbor's Sewer Line May Run Through Our Land
    Assuming there is not something in the more ancient title history, if the two parcels were split into the two homestead sites from a single parcel, an implied easement likely arose at that time. It's possible that a prescriptive easement arose at some time in the past; I would have to speculate about what has happened in the past to be more definite (and guessing won't do you any good). If they have a valid easement, you can expect to bear the cost of relocating the easement.
  • 08-02-2010, 12:29 PM
    HomeAddition
    Re: Neighbor's Sewer Line May Run Through Our Land
    Thanks to both of you.

    I agree. A lawyer would be the most expensive option (reason for consulting this forum). Sounds like I'd likely lose. May be best to earmark any money I would have spent for an attorney on relocating my neighbor's sewer-which they will likely allow me to do-Like I had mentioned, we have a good realtionship and you can't put a price on that- I want to maintain that.

    You are correct it was a land surveyer who is going to perform an "existing conditions survey". Do you think it would be wise at this point to have a proper survey performed where they set the Lot corners and prepare a record of survey?

    Wondering what the laws are around easments pertaining to things like sewers. If for instance I built my addition over the easment but built it on pilings wouldn't this still provide access to the pipes? - I'm sure you must be able to allow "reasonable access" I wonder what defines reasonable? Able to get at it with a hand shovel or able to get at it with a gigantic backhoe.

    If In fact it's vitreous clay (it has to be) that stuff is so brittle I'm sure it'll all break apart once excavating starts anyways- May be best to just plan to replace that stuff with 2 modern sewer pipes?

    Wondering why you scoff at having an architect perform the as built - Is there are better alternative? If so please let me know as I want to know as much as I can going in to this. Thanks again.

    PS (another Question).

    Let's say we determine my neighbor's sewer line in 4 feet behind my house & I want my adition to extend 8 or 10 feet behind my house.

    If my neighbor agrees (and likely at 100% cost to me) can I just relocate this sewer line? Move it 4 or 5 feet beyond where the addition is? I guess I'm essentially moving an easment. Can you just do that and say "OK the sewer is here now" or is there much more to it?...

    ...Also, Let's say we go back to research records from 1926 when both homes were built and there is no easement on record. Does that mean my neighbor has to purchase this easment from me? Since one was never recorded and should have been? Or would a Judge just say- That's the easment they made a mistake back in 1926 and that's that?

    As you may know this is in WA state BTW.

    Thanks for the advice:cool:.
  • 08-03-2010, 09:49 AM
    LandSurveyor
    Re: Neighbor's Sewer Line May Run Through Our Land
    Until you locate the sewer line, no one can do an as built.

    The architect comment is related to my comment about engineers. Same restrictions apply.

    I think it's clear that the lack of a written easement is not going to help you.

    We don't know much about the sewer system in your area, whether it is public or private. It apparently dates to 1926 or earlier. At that age it's most likely a gravity sewer (it relies on gravity only). You might try checking with whoever operates it to see if they might have old plans showing the location of the taps. You can also check with them about the location of the first manhole downstream from you.

    A dye test can narrow things down. Dye is flushed into the neighbor's line in their home. If the dye appears in effluent flowing at the deepest part of the next manhole (the flow line) then the tap is somewhere upstream from the manhole. If it appears in a lateral line entering the manhole from a pipe at an elevation above the bottom flow line, then you have found the tap as that line is the end of the neighbor's line.

    In that situation, it is probable (but not certain) the the line is pretty much a straight line back to the exit point at the neighbor's house.

    The test is not a do-it-yourself project. Ask the sewer utility.

    Good Luck!
  • 08-14-2010, 06:30 PM
    HomeAddition
    Re: Neighbor's Sewer Line May Run Through Our Land
    Update:

    Yesterday (Friday the 13th) we had the sewer scoped and located by a rooter company (under $200.00). Three homes sit side by side. I'm in the middle with one to the north of me and one to the south of me. It appears the Home to the North of us runs through our property and ties into my line. Then it continues on and it ties into the sewer that the neighbor to the south of me and finally hooks up to the sewer main. The three houses share one common sewer line.

    If you read my 1st post - no easement has been recorded - Is this a case of a "Prescriptive easement"? If I wanted to replace my 80 year old cement sewer pipe with PVC could I replace it all the way to the sewer main without permission or do I stop at the property line? What if I wanted to run a separate sewer line from my house to the sewer main?

    I'm wondering what rights each neighbor has over the neighbor the the south- I'm the one that's literally stuck in the middle.:confused:

    Thanks for the help
  • 08-15-2010, 04:01 PM
    LandSurveyor
    Re: Neighbor's Sewer Line May Run Through Our Land
    Quote:

    Yesterday (Friday the 13th) we had the sewer scoped and located by a rooter company (under $200.00).
    That's great! Now that it's marked on the surface and the rooter company has accepted the liability for the location in writing, we can move on to the next item.

    Quote:

    If you read my 1st post - no easement has been recorded - Is this a case of a "Prescriptive easement"?
    If you have researched the title back 80 years, not just at the register of deeds, but all of the other places official documents can be found, you will know whether a recorded easement exists. But a written easement of that age would not have to be recorded. Many were not, but just kept on file at the grantee's office. We still don't know who operates the sewer system.

    If there is no recorded or unrecorded written easement, then you have a prescriptive easement. In that situation you will need to look to the case law in your state to see what courts have historically done in determining the with of prescriptive sewer easements such as yours. Or you could just ask whoever operates the sewer system you use. They will probably know the answer to your other questions.
  • 08-16-2010, 11:28 AM
    HomeAddition
    Re: Neighbor's Sewer Line May Run Through Our Land
    No recorded easement exists. The sewer has been located and it is clear we share a sewer lateral which runs through our yard, through our neighbor's yard and hooks up with the sewer main.

    LandSurveyor and Mr Knowitall talk about 2 diff easements (implied easement and prescriptive) or are they 2 diff terms for the same thing?
  • 08-16-2010, 10:29 PM
    LandSurveyor
    Re: Neighbor's Sewer Line May Run Through Our Land
    An implied easement is an easement that arises from an implication of an intended grant of easement which is unwritten. It would usually require going back to the inception (1926) and trying to divine those intentions at that time.

    A prescriptive easement does not assume that an implication exists, only that the legal requirement for prescription exists. Your mileage may vary depending on your state case law. For you, the difference, if any, is probably of no consequence at this late date.
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