Failure to Stop at a Stop Sign, My First Ticket

My question involves a speeding ticket from the State of: Washington

I'm 20, and I got my first ticket after getting pulled over for "Failure to stop at a stop sign". The ticket is for $124, and as a college student that is a big deal for me as well as insurance increasing. So I'm wondering what the best way to deal with this is?

As far as I know, I did come to a complete stop, I go the route several times a week for work, and I make sure I stop because I've seen people pulled over there for the exact same reason.

I don't know what choice I should choose on my ticket (mitigation or contest). What I have read is that they will take the officer's word over mine, so maybe contesting isn't the best option for me. I also hear I can subpoena the ticketing officer, and most of the time they don't show which gets rid of the ticket? I've also heard it's possible to get a year deferral since it's my first offense, but again, I don't know if this the best option and I don't know what choice to choose on the ticket if I decide to do it.

Any recommendations on how I should go about fighting this ticket would be greatly appreciated! More than anything I'm really nervous and anxious, I have never spoken in court before.


ALSO: My ticket says "DID OPERATE THE FOLLWING VEHICLE/MOTOR VEHICLE ON A PUBLIC HIGHWAY" and then my information underneath, but I was on a local road, is this faulty information or do all traffic tickets say the same?

All traffic tickets say that.

Anyway. I always recommend choosing to contest and to motion for discovery.

He might fail to mention that he saw you run the stop sign. You could motion for dismissal as this is hearsay.

He may not mention where he was. That could also use the above motion, but a little bit different.

He may mention where he was, but you may be able to prove that where he was does not adequately show where the "stop line" is and it is impossible for him to actually see if you came to a complete stop.

As you can see, there are a lot of possibilities, but you must discover.

Brendan

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Quoting BrendanjKeegan

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All traffic tickets say that.

Anyway. I always recommend choosing to contest and to motion for discovery.

He might fail to mention that he saw you run the stop sign. You could motion for dismissal as this is hearsay.

He may not mention where he was. That could also use the above motion, but a little bit different.

He may mention where he was, but you may be able to prove that where he was does not adequately show where the "stop line" is and it is impossible for him to actually see if you came to a complete stop.

As you can see, there are a lot of possibilities, but you must discover.

Brendan

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Thanks for the response. Sorry I'm a bit unfamiliar with the term motion for discovery. It's basically asking for more evidence on the case, right? What would I receive from the discovery to aid me to fight this case?

Also, sorry for posting in the wrong section. I didn't notice the traffic control forum.

A stop sign violation is a civil ticket. There really is no discovery as there is no prosecutor. The state is represented by the police officer.

The best thing is to file a state freedom of information request with the relevant law enforcement agency.

You can get any video footage from the police car cameras.
You can get radio traffic and the computer data traffic.
You could get the officer's notes, though most ticket cases don't have any.

Most of the time none of this stuff will help you.

You can NOT do depositions or other discovery.

I don't know about your state, but here the police officers are paid to show up and usually do. Their supervisors and other officers are there in court and you can be sure they will be called on the carpet if they don't show.

Here you can hire a traffic attorney for $70. They will plead you no contest, and the deal is that the judge fines you but withholds adjudication, which means DMV does not find out about it or assess any points. That means your insurance company does not find out.

If you contest it, you will not win. If you piss the judge off you won't get the adjudication withheld. The court will believe the officer.

Also, if you take it to trial, in addition to the fine, you will also have to pay court costs.

Also, it is not a real trial. Your line of questioning will be very limited.

there's a good book you should check out from your library (or buy -- it's cheap compared to a ticket) ... beat your ticket: go to court and win by david brown (note: not the one he wrote that's just about CA) ... it talks about all this court-sie stuff in far more detail and will bring you up to speed (without running any signs) fairly quickly.

{i know i keep mentioning his books across the forum, but i am not david brown, i'm just a big fan. 95% of the questions on here are answered by his texts.}

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Quoting Rizzice

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Thanks for the response. Sorry I'm a bit unfamiliar with the term motion for discovery. It's basically asking for more evidence on the case, right? What would I receive from the discovery to aid me to fight this case?

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Barry has written a thread that will answer all of your basic questions which also links to a template in which you can edit and request for discovery. It can be found here.

If you're still confused on what discovery is, see IRLJ 3.1(b).

So I just read the procedural guide to traffic tickets, and it was really informative, I am just having a really hard time deciding what I should do, and I have about 7 more days left to send in my ticket.

Basically, last week I was ticketed for not stopping at a stop sign (whether or not I actually stopped, I am not 100% sure, but I'm fairly sure I did since I drive the route several times a week for work).

I have already decided that I don't want to mitigate the ticket, since it will still go on my record, so I suppose my only choice is to contest, but from there I am unsure how I should go about this ticket. From what I understand, I can either get it deferred at the pre-hearing, or follow through to the actual hearing after motioning for discovery at the pre-hearing (?).

I guess my questions are:
- What are deferral "administrative fees" based on? On the sticky, it mentions you MAY have to pay $100-150, does that mean there's a chance that you won't have to pay for the deferment? Is it only possible to find out the cost after deciding to defer?

- If I decide not to defer, does that mean my only hopes of winning are:
> IRLJ 2.6 (time frame of pre-hearing/hearing/etc are outside of IRLJ 2.6)
> A failure of requisite material from motion to discovery (IRLJ 3.1 (b))
> Filing date not within 5 days of issued ticket
Is it common for tickets to be waived because of the reasons above and will a motion for discovery aid me in anything besides the reasons listed above ?

- Would it be a bad idea to just mark down contest for now (since my options I'm looking at are deferral or discovery)? Maybe I should just eat the money and take the deferral? $100-150 is a lot as a student, but at the same time I am a terribly nervous public speaker, and also not well versed in law or court. I just know I'm really stressed out with all of this along with finals week, I hope I can sort it out soon.

Any recommendation or info is greatly appreciated.

First of all, relax. There's plenty of time. This is NOT something you have to worry about in the next few days, or even weeks. For now, just send the ticket back (make a copy) marked "contested".

In a week or so, you will receive your hearing (or pre-hearing) notice. After that, you can worry about a Discovery Request.

When you get your notice, do what I suggested -- call the Clerk and ask about deferral costs. They should be able to tell you -- most courts charge a "standard" fee, but it varies from court to court -- also, some courts will give you up to 90 days to pay it.

When you get your discovery materials, THAT'S when you make up your mind. If the officer's sworn statement is pretty iron-clad, you can always ask for a deferral. If you can find some holes, brush up on your public speaking skills and fight it.

But, as I said, there's no real hurry, so don't stress out about it. You have enough to worry about with finals. Just don't put off sending in the ticket.

Barry

p.s. As far as forum protocol, please keep your posts in ONE thread (even though you originally posted in the wrong forum). That way people who might want to help aren't inconvenienced by having to search for your original thread to see what others have already posted.

Maybe one of the mods will move these posts to your original thread.

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Quoting b1-66er

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there's a good book you should check out from your library (or buy -- it's cheap compared to a ticket) ... beat your ticket: go to court and win by david brown (note: not the one he wrote that's just about CA) ... it talks about all this court-sie stuff in far more detail and will bring you up to speed (without running any signs) fairly quickly.

{i know i keep mentioning his books across the forum, but i am not david brown, i'm just a big fan. 95% of the questions on here are answered by his texts.}

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b1,

For one, David Brown does NOT have any books on how to "Fight/beat tickets in Washington State".

Two, Washington state's court procedures vary drastically from most states in the union (for a number of reasons) so even if Mr Brown does have a book about a general -all state- guide on how to fight traffic tickets in court, most of his analogies are inapplicable when it comes to Washington state.

Three, this forum has an elaborate, well written and detailed guide that was written by the, ever-so-eloquent blewis (Procedural Guide to Traffic Tickets in Washington State) that supersedes anything that Brown could even begin to write about Washington's state's traffic court procedures.

Forth, and even in Mr Brown's California version of his book, and once you make it into a California traffic court, you will find yourself dumbfounded at how the real life process differs from the analogies that he uses in his book. I am neither an attorney nor an author, and yet I can illustrate to you one (amongst a few) misconception that Brown preaches in his book. You can look at How to Get a Case Dismissed Over Non-Response to Informal Discovery (post #4, post #5 and post #7) and you'll see why Brown's analogy doesn't even come close to working!

Yes, with it having 12 editions in print, David Brown's book is very popular for first timers. And while you can toot his horn (no pun intended) all day long and all over this forum, at the end of the day, California Traffic courts aren't as easily manipulated as Brown suggests they are.

My apologies to Rizzice for the thread jack!

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Quoting blewis

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First of all, relax. There's plenty of time. This is NOT something you have to worry about in the next few days, or even weeks. For now, just send the ticket back (make a copy) marked "contested".

In a week or so, you will receive your hearing (or pre-hearing) notice. After that, you can worry about a Discovery Request.

When you get your notice, do what I suggested -- call the Clerk and ask about deferral costs. They should be able to tell you -- most courts charge a "standard" fee, but it varies from court to court -- also, some courts will give you up to 90 days to pay it.

When you get your discovery materials, THAT'S when you make up your mind. If the officer's sworn statement is pretty iron-clad, you can always ask for a deferral. If you can find some holes, brush up on your public speaking skills and fight it.

But, as I said, there's no real hurry, so don't stress out about it. You have enough to worry about with finals. Just don't put off sending in the ticket.

Barry

p.s. As far as forum protocol, please keep your posts in ONE thread (even though you originally posted in the wrong forum). That way people who might want to help aren't inconvenienced by having to search for your original thread to see what others have already posted.

Maybe one of the mods will move these posts to your original thread.

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Okay, so I received my hearing notice today (although it says hearing, it's a pre-hearing, right?) for early August.

So my plan is to call in and see how much a deferment costs, is the clerk the person to ask about getting it deferred without going into court or is that even an option? I'm thinking I want to do a discovery request and make sure there's no way I can fight it before I decide to go the deferral route, so what would my next step be?

Is it easy to identify weak points (if there are any) when I get the discovery materials?

If the notice says "Hearing", it is a hearing. If it says "Pre-hearing Conference", then it's a pre-hearing conference.

Yes, call the Clerk and ask how much a deferral will cost. NO, the clerk cannot grant a deferral -- only a judge can do that. They may, however, let you request a deferral by mail or even email, so ask the Clerk. Also, ask the Clerk for the address of the Prosecutor's Office. That's where you must "serve" your Discovery Request. You also need to "file" a copy of the request with the court.

When you receive your discovery materials, scan them and post them here (removing any personally identifying information). There are several people here who will help you pick them apart.

Barry

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Quoting blewis

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If the notice says "Hearing", it is a hearing. If it says "Pre-hearing Conference", then it's a pre-hearing conference.

Yes, call the Clerk and ask how much a deferral will cost. NO, the clerk cannot grant a deferral -- only a judge can do that. They may, however, let you request a deferral by mail or even email, so ask the Clerk. Also, ask the Clerk for the address of the Prosecutor's Office. That's where you must "serve" your Discovery Request. You also need to "file" a copy of the request with the court.

When you receive your discovery materials, scan them and post them here (removing any personally identifying information). There are several people here who will help you pick them apart.

Barry

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I can't thank you enough for all the help. So I can just download and print the forms for discovery, and mail one to prosecutor's office, and one to the court address?

My understanding was that there is always a pre-hearing before a hearing? Isn't pre-hearing the time in which they offer you a deferral if your record is clean? Also, this is an embarrassing question, but how do I find the number for the clerk? Is it just the King County Superior Court clerk's office?

look up the rcw that the officer cited you for. I hired a lawyer for the same ticket and this is how he beat it in court. The officer stated that I did not stop at the stop sign so he pulled me over and gave me a ticket. My lawyer said to the judge the rcw says when it comes to a stop sign you can stop at the stop bar or the stop sign the officer never said I did not stop at the stop bar. So case dismissed. try to pull it up and read it and then see what the officer wrote down on the ticket. Good luck...

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Quoting just a member

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look up the rcw that the officer cited you for. I hired a lawyer for the same ticket and this is how he beat it in court. The officer stated that I did not stop at the stop sign so he pulled me over and gave me a ticket. My lawyer said to the judge the rcw says when it comes to a stop sign you can stop at the stop bar or the stop sign the officer never said I did not stop at the stop bar. So case dismissed. try to pull it up and read it and then see what the officer wrote down on the ticket. Good luck...

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Interesting.

The ticket was for RCW 46.61.190:
"...every driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign shall stop at a clearly marked stop line..."

The officer wrote underneath this on the ticket:
"failed to stop at stop sign"

Am I onto something, or completely off? :\

So after much contemplation, I decided to just go with the deferral. It's going to cost me $150 or so, but I guess I'll just learn from my lesson and pay attention to signs more >.<

I asked the clerk how to request a deferral by mail, and they said to basically write it on the statement, and send it in.

For anyone who is experienced with this, is this as simple as saying that you have a clean record and requesting a deferral on the form?

Thanks again for everyone's help.

just a few things:

that guy,

1. a huge portion of the questions i've read on this board concerning CA tix are answered in brown's CA book. a very significant amount of time would be saved by all posters if everyone was familiar with it before they came here.

2. i intentionally excluded brown's CA book in this thread. and while it's true he doesn't talk about WA specifically -except in some generalizations- it doesn't hurt to be aware of underlying concepts.

3. i never say, or imply, that anything in any book is better than any information in this forum.

4. i agree with bo3b johnson (sic) who says you should assume everything you read on the internet is a lie, unless you have a substantial reason to believe otherwise.