Grandfather Rights

[john roberts]

My question involves real estate located in the State of: Arizona

We purchased this property in the early 70's from a party who was using the
property as a recycling yard and we have used it since then for the same purpose. Poor area in those days, people saved everything. Planning and Zoning was established here shortly after, health department being the only
restrictive entity on property in those days. Pand Z came out a couple times in the late 80's, early 80's said, No Problem. Lot is 10 acres, trees, not visable from the road. 40 years have passed and we have new folks moving in. Neighbor wants the property..filed a complaint with P and Z. We violate the newly formed ordinances. They have fined us under their ordinaces, formed after we were there. According to the information I have gleaned here and there we are grandfathered and not subject to their ordinances, that they cannot make us conform to statutes that were not in effect when we bought the property. No complaints for 40 years. We violate no EPA rules. We need a clarification, preferably the law. thanks

[LawResearcherMissy]

State ordinances? City ordinances? Can you please cite the ordinances you're accused of violating?

[john roberts]

State ordinances? City ordinances? Can you please cite the ordinances you're accused of violating?

The ordinances are Section (s) 603,607,1811,2301,2304 of the Cochise County, Arizona Zoning Regulations. These regulations went in many years and have been added to..... after the property was already in use as a recycling, dismantling yard. The argument is that the ordinances do not apply as the
use was established before the ordinances were enacted. Thanks for you help...john

[Mr. Knowitall]

We have no access to the historic ordinances to compare "then and now", and even if we did you're describing a substantial research project. If that's beyond you as a "self-help" project, I suggest that you retain a local real estate lawyer who handles zoning matters to research your case and argue your position.

[john roberts]

We have no access to the historic ordinances to compare "then and now", and even if we did you're describing a substantial research project. If that's beyond you as a "self-help" project, I suggest that you retain a local real estate lawyer who handles zoning matters to research your case and argue your position.

Unfortunately there are no real estate lawyers here in this backwater community. We are told, have been told over the years that if you have built something, are doing something before Planning and Zoning was formed (this is the case here) that you cannot be made to conform to the new rules unless it is an E.P.A. violation which would come from a different agency...It should not take a Philidelphia lawyer to know this, know the ruling. Appreciate the advice....john

[john roberts]

Unfortunately there are no real estate lawyers here in this backwater community. We are told, have been told over the years that if you have built something, are doing something before Planning and Zoning was formed (this is the case here) that you cannot be made to conform to the new rules unless it is an E.P.A. violation which would come from a different agency...It should not take a Philidelphia lawyer to know this, know the ruling. Appreciate the advice....john

How sad it is in the country of over 300 million folks that not one knows the law or care to state it. I remember as a younger man, several court cases where the judge informed the complaintant that...this condition existed before these
city, county, ordiances were passed. You cannot make him now conform to the new......he is grandfathered. If you have a house with 2x4 roof rafters and the new ordinance calls for 2x6's, you cannot go back and make those with 2x4 rafters conform to the new code. They are grandfathered....SAD!

[LawResearcherMissy]

You seem to be operating under the assumption that the people who actually know the laws in your state and city are reading this forum.

Of the 60K+ registered users here, only about 20 VOLUNTEERS actually answer questions, and none specialize in historic Arizona property law.

Mayhap you can look to HIRE someone in your state to research it in depth for you.

[john roberts]

You seem to be operating under the assumption that the people who actually know the laws in your state and city are reading this forum.

Of the 60K+ registered users here, only about 20 VOLUNTEERS actually answer questions, and none specialize in historic Arizona property law.

Mayhap you can look to HIRE someone in your state to research it in depth for you.

Missy.thanks for your response. No I did not assume that the people here in this state read anything, much less this forum. But I had hoped that one, knowing a little of the law, agreed with me that local countys and citys cannot pass ordinances which causes one to spend lots of money and time
to conform to the new ordinances if the use was in place before the ordinance was passed. I have been told this all my life, have picked it up from landrights websites and etc. What I need is verification or someone to point me to the law that states this. Any legal mind concerned with property rights would know it off the top of their head. There is no legal recourse if one does not have thousands to spend or who have the time to
research it themselves. Hopefully the new society, the one that will come into being when this one collapses will be able to administer to the needs of all that this society has failed to do. Now i am off my soapbox. Thanks missy, sorry you don't know the answer. john

[Mr. Knowitall]

If all you want is a citation to a law that supports your belief that certain uses can be grandfathered in, despite subsequent zoning changes, that's what you should ask for. Please note, also, that building codes may be adopted through zoning ordinances but building codes, themselves, are not ordinances.

I believe you're looking for the state's zoning enabling statute,

A. The municipality may acquire by purchase or condemnation private property for the removal of nonconforming uses and structures. The elimination of such nonconforming uses and structures in a zoned district is for a public purpose. Nothing in an ordinance or regulation authorized by this article shall affect existing property or the right to its continued use for the purpose used at the time the ordinance or regulation takes effect, nor to any reasonable repairs or alterations in buildings or property used for such existing purpose.

B. A municipality shall not require as a condition for a permit or for any approval, or otherwise cause, an owner or possessor of property to waive the right to continue an existing nonconforming outdoor advertising use or structure without acquiring the use or structure by purchase or condemnation and paying just compensation unless the municipality, at its option, allows the use or structure to be relocated to a comparable site in the municipality with the same or a similar zoning classification, or to another site in the municipality acceptable to both the municipality and the owner of the use or structure, and the use or structure is relocated to the other site. The municipality shall pay for relocating the outdoor advertising use or structure including the cost of removing and constructing the new use or structure that is at least the same size and height. This subsection does not apply to municipal rezoning of property at the request of the property owner.

C. A municipality must issue a citation and file an action involving an outdoor advertising use or structure zoning or sign code violation within two years after discovering the violation. Such an action shall initially be filed with a court having jurisdiction to impose all penalties sought by the action and that jurisdiction is necessary for effective filing. Only the superior court has jurisdiction to order removal, abatement, reconfiguration or relocation of an outdoor advertising use or structure. Notwithstanding any other law, a municipality shall not consider each day that an outdoor advertising use or structure is illegally erected, constructed, reconstructed, altered or maintained as a separate offense unless the violation constitutes an immediate threat to the health and safety of the general public.

Note that even when the statute applies, attempting to expand or enlarge the non-conforming use may render the new ordinance applicable.

That's the starting point - a very preliminary starting point - for finding out if your use is arguably grandfathered in, and (assuming there aren't any state statutes that authorize them to regulate recycling or scrap yards) if the county has any basis for arguing that something about your use of the land causes more recent ordinances to apply.

[john roberts]

If all you want is a citation to a law that supports your belief that certain uses can be grandfathered in, despite subsequent zoning changes, that's what you should ask for.

SORRY.....I AM NOT A LAWYER AND DID NOT KNOW WHAT EXACTLY TO ASK FOR....I TRIED TO MAKE MY SITUATION KNOWN TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY
Please note, also, that building codes may be adopted through zoning ordinances but building codes, themselves, are not ordinances.

I believe you're looking for the state's zoning enabling statute,

I HAVE TRIED TO FIND THE APPLICABLE LAW, STATUTE OR ORDIANANCE IN THE ARIZONA STATE STATUTES BUT EITHER HAVE NOT FOUND OR BEEN ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT I FOUND APPLIED.

Note that even when the statute applies, attempting to expand or enlarge the non-conforming use may render the new ordinance applicable.

THERE HAS BEEN NO ATTEMPT IN 40 YEARS TO CHANGE THE OPERATION.
40 YEARS AGO THE OWNERS OF THE PROPERTY BOUGHT CARS, AND ETC. FROM THEIR NEIGHBORS, STORED SUCH AND SOLD TO MAKE A LIVING. THE PRESENT OWNER BOUGHT IT FROM THEM FOR THE PURPOSE OF CONTINUING
THE SAME OPERATION;. hE HAS OPERATED IT SINCE 1972. pLANNING AND zONING CAME INTO BEING IN OUR COUNTY ABOUT THIS SAME TIME, VISITED HIM, ALLOWED HIM TO CONTINUE TO THIS DAY. HE DIED 3 MONTHS AGO, LEAVING HIS WIDOW TO DEAL WITH THE NEIGHBOR WHO WANTS THE PROPERTY AND WHO HAS TURNED HER IN TO ALL OF THE VARIOUS BUREACRACYS, PLANNING AND ZONING BEING THE ONLY ONE RESPONDING.
AT THIS POINT THEY HAVE FOUND HER GUILTY OF THE ORDINACES POSTED EARLIER. I HOLD A MORTGAGE ON THE PROPERTY FOR MONEY LOANED TO CONTINUE OPERATION WHEN THE OWNER BECAME ILL AND UNABLE TO WORK.

That's the starting point - a very preliminary starting point - for finding out if your use is arguably grandfathered in, and (assuming there aren't any state statutes that authorize them to regulate recycling or scrap yards)

IT IS QUITE POSSIBLE THERE ARE, AND IF SO MY QUESTION WOULD BE IF THEY ARE APPLICABLE IF CAME INTO BEING AFTER THE USE WAS ESTABLISHED. AS MENTIONED EARLIER, THE INFORMATION I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TOLD IS THAT UNLESS YOU ARE VIOLATING E.P.A.(HAZARDOUS WASTE AND ETC.) YOU ARE GRANDFATHERED...
if the county has any basis for arguing that something about your use of the land causes more recent ordinances to apply.

OUR COUNTY HAS BEEN ARGUING THESE RECLYLING YARDS WHICH ARE NOTHING MORE THAN THE OLD TIMERS DOING A BUY AND SELL, YARDSALE
TYPE OF OPERATION WHICH IS NOW PASS'E. THIS PARTICULAR OPERATION
WAS GEARED UP MORE TO VEHICLES WHICH THE STATE (S) WANT TO DISPOSE OF. WE JUST WENT THRU A RECENT PROPOSED REVISION TO
THE ZONING RESTRICTIONS WHICH WOULD HAVE DENIED THE USE OF
ANY BACKHOE, DUMP TRUCK OR TRUCK OVER ONE TON. PLUS THE REDUCTION OF THE AMOUNT OF OUTSIDE STORAGE AND OTHER THINGS.
WE LIVE IN A BASICALLY RURAL COUNTY EXCEPT FOR THE CITY OF SIERRA VISTA. WE HAD A RUSH OF PEOPLE HERE FROM OTHER AREAS BUYING UP CHEAPER PROPERTY THAN WHERE THEY LIVED SEVERAL YEARS AGO. THIS HAS COME TO A HALT BUT ALL OF THESE NEW PROPOSED REGULATIONS CAME FROM THIS INFLUX. IT CAME TO A SCREECHING HALT WITH THE BANK FIASCO AND ETC. LAST YEAR.

Mr Knowitall. you have basically given me the information altho it appears to be directed at signs rather than junk yards but I appreciate your research and if you can get me to something definitive I can send to the county attorney and have him get off our butt......i will happily contribute to your favorite charity, even if its you and your kids. I need something from someone
with an official letterhead.....then perhaps someone in the county building will pay attention. email me at pomerenejohn@hotmail.com.....thanks much...
john