Religious Accommodation and Atheism

[Pastafarian]

And what are the requirements behind "religious reasons"?

I am an Atheist, and everyone I work with knows I am an Atheist. Personally, I view the religious reasons to be simply an excuse, or at least possibly an excuse. By possibly, I mean that if a woman wanted to wear a head scarf to work, all she would need to do is claim to be a Muslim, and that would be her so called "valid" excuse.

Because I am an Atheist, and I subscribe to no religious beliefs, would it then be within my rights to make an excuse of my own for some religious purpose?

For example, a very well known, albeit parody of a religion named "The church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster" (you can look it up), which was formed in 2005, and was used to protest the decision by the Kansas State Board of Education to require the teaching of intelligent design as an alternative to biological evolution in public schools.

The idea was that if they were going to teach the theistic views of "intelligent design" in public schools, then they must also allow other unverifiable claims (such as the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster) to be taught in public schools as well.

So what then, if I were to use the same entity for my own "religious reasons". According to Pastafarianism, the prophet was a pirate, and pirates are considered to be divine beings. An so by braiding my beard, adorned with beads, I am simply honoring his great noodly appendage by showing my dedication to look like a pirate, as is required by the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. And no, I am not joking.

The reasoning behind this argument, is simply that if people can do things with their hair, facial hair, clothing, a dot on the forehead, etc. with religious based reasons, then should I be denied the very same fundamental right to make so called religious based excuses, just because I do not happen to subscribe to a religion?

[LawResearcherMissy]

Personally, I view the religious reasons to be simply an excuse, or at least possibly an excuse.

The law doesn't care about your personal views. Neither does it care about the Flying Spaghetti Monster. You can be touched by his noodly appendage all you want, the law doesn't recognize it as a religious stricture or sincerely held religious belief.

You show that your atheism requires you to wear your facial hair in two braids with beads on it, then you might have a case. But...it doesn't, and you don't.

The bottom line is that your employer has the right to define a dress code. If you don't wish to adhere to it, you have the right to quit.

[Pastafarian]

So let me get this straight.

There are well over 10,000 different established religions in the world today, most of them with completely different customs, traditions, requirements, etc.

Obviously, with this many different views, they can't all be right, and in fact means that most (if not all of them) are wrong. So, if most of them are most certainly wrong anyway, and yet all of them are still allowed to legally get away with doing almost anything as long as it is part of their (almost certainly wrong numerically speaking) religious beliefs, even though their traditions probably have no real justification, and at the same time I am refused the right to do the same exact thing just because I am not religious, sounds a lot like religious discrimination to me. At least on the side of the law.

Essentially, a non Muslim woman could be written up and even fired legally for nothing more than wearing a head scarf to work, while a Muslim woman she sits next to, also wearing a head scarf, is legally protected because of what she believes? How is this not religious discrimination?

I am not going off on this because of some stupid little braids in my beard. I could shave my beard today, and could care less.

What I have a problem with here, is other people getting away with whatever they want for whatever reason, and me being forced to do (or not do) something just because I am told to. To me, this is no different than my boss telling me to get on the floor and bark like a dog for no valid or justified reason, and me refusing.

[cbg]

Here's the deal, big shot.

A person who goes to HR or their boss and claims that they have a sincerely held religious belief that requires them to violate the company dress code, CAN be required to show evidence thereof. They don't get to just make a claim and be granted immediate absolution.

So why should you? What makes you so special that you should be granted an exception just because you THINK someone else might get one?

Who died and made you king?

[jk]

I am an Atheist, and everyone I work with knows I am an Atheist.

Because I am an Atheist, and I subscribe to no religious beliefs, would it then be within my rights to make an excuse of my own for some religious purpose?

you have already shot yourself.

you are an atheist so any religion that follows the belief of a deity is obviously not available to you, including the spaghetti monster.

you also state you subscribe to no religious beliefs.

therefore, you cannot claim a religious reasoning for anything. You are not religious and even if you were, a person claiming religious allowances generally has a difficult time claiming religious allowances unless they can prove they live their life in such a manner of following their religious tenets faithfully and continuously.


Example; I am a Christian (of a specific denomination) and working on Sundays is not supposed to happen. Now, I do not practice all the tenets of my religion so fervently that I can refuse to work on Sundays, if required by my employer, because I have not proven I follow the tenets of my religion...well...religiously.

You, by stating you have no religious beliefs, have removed all possibilities of a sustainable defense to allowing religiously supported actions.

and to this:

I could shave my beard today, and could care less.

If something is meaningless to me, that means I couldn't care less. Since you could care less, how much less could you care before you couldn't care less? How important is not shaving your beard?

as to others getting away with it;

that is often because those who have to argue this on the side of the employer do not want to spend the time and effort on fighting something that they can dismiss so easily as "their religion allows it". If all the employers wanted to argue against items such as you are concerned with, there are many the employers would win but it is simply a financial loss so they do not bother.

[LawResearcherMissy]

I could shave my beard today, and could care less.

Then what are you in here crying "religious discrimination" for? Your braided facial hair is is not a sincerely held religious belief that you're being discriminated against over. You're just mad because you don't think religion should be accommodated, because you don't believe in religion.

Here. Go read about Title VII and religious discrimination in the workplace.

To me, this is no different than my boss telling me to get on the floor and bark like a dog for no valid or justified reason, and me refusing.

If you refused, your employer could legally terminate you for insubordination. Welcome to the world of at-will employment. Please drive through.

[Pastafarian]

Here's the deal, big shot.

A person who goes to HR or their boss and claims that they have a sincerely held religious belief that requires them to violate the company dress code, CAN be required to show evidence thereof. They don't get to just make a claim and be granted immediate absolution.

So why should you? What makes you so special that you should be granted an exception just because you THINK someone else might get one?

Who died and made you king?

That is my point exactly. There are people in the office who have many different and out of the ordinary forms of expression. It would seem as though I am simply being singled out.

The point is, when I am sitting with someone who has a blue mowhawk, someone else who has full sleeved visible tattoos, someone else who has ear piercings the size of bottle caps, and someone with 3.5 foot dread locks with sea shells in it, and someone else who has a spiked bottom lip piercing, all of which have been like that for years, without a single issue, and the moment I braid my beard, I am told not to do it, and to leave it out of the workplace...

Seriously? I mean, how is this me thinking I am a king?

Then what are you in here crying "religious discrimination" for?

If someone is allowed to do something for religious reasons, and I am NOT allowed to also do it because I am not religious, I call that religious discrimination.

Welcome to the world of at-will employment.

Shouldn't this then mean that in a world of at-will employment, they should also have the right to fire someone for doing something religious based as long as it is against company policy?

I mean, either let everyone do it, or do not let anyone do it.

I don't know... At this point, I am really just complaining about how stupid the law can be I suppose. I also enjoy beating dead horses in case you were wondering.

Now it is simply a matter of pride. Wish me luck, because I will likely either be fired or quit next week on a matter of principle.

I also appreciate all of your answers.

[cdwjava]

One has to ask ... why?

WHY are you doing this? Are you simply trying to prove to your employer what a pain you can be? Are you bored? I mean ... why?

This seems more than a little juvenile to me. But, I guess it is because I choose not to waste my time on useless issues that could get me fired or, at the very least, will get my coworkers thinking I'm a loon.

- Carl

[ashman165]

at the very least, will get my coworkers thinking I'm a loon.

- Carl

That's what we're here for, Carl. ^_^

I can't agree with you more, or with Missy for that matter.

Though I don't want to sound too much like a troll on this, I would just like to submit that this atheist isn't indicative of us all; though I must admit, I'm a little embarrassed by him.

OP, it's essentially this. Unless you can show your employer is discriminating against you because you're black, a woman, a jew, a muslim, um, handicapped (arguably doable), you're SOL. It's his business. Don't care for his rules? Get a different job. It really is that simple.

Even if you weren't an atheist; indeed, consider you could be like the holiest holy man in some something another, I doubt you'd be able to find support in any extant religion that not only must you wear a beard, but also you must braid it. While courts do take great pains to keep parties in their proper areas of influence --like when they called BS on that nut-job Intelligent Design enthusiasts and kicked that line of BS out of the schools (twice)--they aren't required to be nearly retarded and accept any half-witted assertion as, well, sincere.

On a more personal note, it's the ordinary case that atheists are such for intellectual reasons. Usually, they find the idea of a god --any god-- to be unworthy of categorical belief because of some metric of logic. You seem to be the exception to the intellectual argument.

In the ordinary case, those who subscribe to some religion do so for reasons of belief. They have had things in their lives which come about that shows them the existence of their god. But even in the fringe elements of religion, there's a common thread: belief, faith in something higher than ourselves. To suggest that your unbraided/braided beard is even remotely in the same arena is profoundly stupid and I'd argue the very paradigm of hubris.

Also, the entire tone of your assertions ignores a very simple concept: in most places, a woman, man, even your precious Spaghetti Monster, can be fired for a good reason, no reason, or even a bad reason, provided that no violation of law occurs. So, "you're a dip-shit" would be a perfectly legal reason to fire you. Whether your employer has yet caught onto that is a matter for another day.

[jk]

=ashman165;317473]

Even if you weren't an atheist; indeed, consider you could be like the holiest holy man in some something another, I doubt you'd be able to find support in any extant religion that not only must you wear a beard, but also you must braid it.

maybe not braiding it but definitely the wearing of a beard

Amish

and to funky stuff, ever see the hasidic jews and their shirley temple curls?