Right Turn on Red Signal Ticket

[pfchang]

My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California.

I made a right turn on a red light without stopping. I understand that I needed to stop before making the turn. I'm not completely sure but I think my case falls under this code:

21453 (b) Except when a sign is in place prohibiting a turn, a driver, after stopping as required by subdivision (a), facing a steady circular red signal, may turn right, or turn left from a one-way street onto a one-way street. A driver making that turn shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to any vehicle that has approached or is approaching so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard to the driver, and shall continue to yield the right-of-way to that vehicle until the driver can proceed with reasonable safety.

The thing is that the code they have on my citation is 21453 (c) which is:

A driver facing a steady red arrow signal shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, shall stop at a clearly marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication permitting movement is shown.

There were no arrow signals. No right turn signals either.

My questions are: do they have me cited with the correct code? If not, can I plead not guilty and be found not guilty by the court? If I'm found not guilty of 21453(c), is there a chance they will just cite me anew with code 21453(b)?

Would greatly appreciate any help with this.
Thanks

[cdwjava]

Unless they amend the citation before trial, you should be able to defeat a 21453(c) cite ... be sure and get photos of the intersection that shows no arrows exist. This is a rookie mistake. In fact, this is essentially how I lost the only traffic court case I ever HAVE lost (it was my first one) - I cited 21453(c) when I SHOULD have cited 21453(a) (or even (b)).

- Carl

[pfchang]

Thanks Carl for your reply.

One thing I should have mentioned though is that the ticket was from a camera. Does that make a difference in my case? I can get the photo online that shows no arrow signals. They also have video of me making a right without stopping.

Thanks again.

[cdwjava]

The elements to be proven are the same - the state has to show that you committed the violation. Since they can NOT show you turned against a red arrow, you should be okay.

- Carl

[pfchang]

Thanks for helping me out Carl. I hope I can make it stick.

[sniper]

I made a right turn on a red light without stopping. I understand that I needed to stop before making the turn. I'm not completely sure but I think my case falls under this code:

21453 (b) Except when a sign is in place prohibiting a turn, a driver, after stopping as required by subdivision (a), facing a steady circular red signal, may turn right, or turn left from a one-way street onto a one-way street. A driver making that turn shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to any vehicle that has approached or is approaching so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard to the driver, and shall continue to yield the right-of-way to that vehicle until the driver can proceed with reasonable safety.

The thing is that the code they have on my citation is 21453 (c) which is:

A driver facing a steady red arrow signal shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, shall stop at a clearly marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication permitting movement is shown.

The correct section for not stopping is

21453. (a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b).

Are you sure there is not a little leg on the (c). Your copy is the 4th of a carbon copy set so sloppy hand writing may be multiplied on your copy. What does the written description after the vehicle code section state? Something like failure to stop @ red light, red light, red arrow etc?

Anyhow, like Carl states, if he did in fact write the wrong section, let him present his case and when it is your turn, hammer him (unless it's ammended prior to the trial).

[pfchang]

ah I'm so dumb. I got my facts wrong. I visited the intersection for the 3rd time and noticed THERE ARE RIGHT ARROW LIGHTS!! But there are only Green and Yellow Right Arrow Lights that turn on ONLY when the crossing traffic on the right is making a left. The Green Arrow turns to Yellow Arrow then to Red Circle Light. Everytime I've driven through the intersection I've only come upon circular lights. Today I took a camera to take pictures and waited for all the light changes, and voila, green and yellow right arrows.

So what does this mean? Does the red circle light mean the same as a red arrow light(which after thinking about it, I've never seen on the road) in this situation? This setup is typical at intersections, I just never stopped long enough to see any right arrow lights at that intersection until today.

Sorry for giving you guys the wrong info.

Sniper,
My citation is from a camera so the ticket I got in the mail is a printed copy. It's definitely a (c). The description is "Failure to Stop at Red Light".

Btw, another detail. On the back of my ticket there are instructions, which #1 says

The Reason You Received This Notice:
A vehicle registered in your name was photographed failing to stop for an official red traffic control signal, or the registered owner of the vehicle depicted on this citation has submitted an Affidavit naming you as the driver of the vehicle at the time of the offense. This is a violation of the State of California Vehicle code Section 21453(a) or (c) pursuant to Section 21455.5

That last sentence worries me. I'm hopefully assuming that "no stop red light" tickets fall under either (a) or (c) so they have that on all the tickets and what really matters is the citation on the front of the ticket.

Would really appreciate another round of advice. Thanks.

-pf