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  1. #1
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    Default Remembering Kent State

    To those who were wounded and especially those whose lives were taken before thier dreams could be realized:

    In memorial:

    Killed (and approximate distance from the National Guard):

    Allison Krause 343 ft. (105 m); fatal left chest wound
    Jeffrey Glen Miller 265 ft. (81 m); shot through the mouth - killed instantly
    Sandra Lee Scheuer 390 ft. (119 m); fatal neck wound
    William Knox Schroeder 382 ft. (116 m); fatal chest wound



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings


    May they rest in peace!!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Remembering Kent State

    Quote Quoting BOR
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    May they rest in peace!!
    amen to that
    Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Remembering Kent State

    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

    Unfortunately, the blood is to often spilled by patriots.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Remembering Kent State

    Having been at the receiving end of an irate crowd, I can understand how an untrained and armed cadre of civilian soldiers could be in fear for their safety and fire. It takes a special sort of discipline (not trained to NG'men of the time) to face down hundreds or thousands of people with only a thin line at your back, and a prayer that they will not overwhelm you.

    - Carl
    A Nor Cal Cop Sergeant

    "Make mine a double mocha ...
    And a croissant!"


    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Remembering Kent State

    I understand crowd control Carl, but if you look at the meter distance between the guardsmen and the students, it hardly seems the guards were in fear of being stampeded?

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Remembering Kent State

    Quote Quoting BOR
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    I understand crowd control Carl, but if you look at the meter distance between the guardsmen and the students, it hardly seems the guards were in fear of being stampeded?
    I don't know how fast the crowd was coming on, or if those hit were in the front elements of the crowd ... but, 100 yards can be a very small place if you are scared, have no place to retreat to (as I understand was the case with the Guardsmen) and are outnumbered by many times by folks that are chanting that they want to do you harm.

    The Guard was ill-trained and equipped to deal with this kind of situation and anyone who has studied crowd control tactics since that time could have predicted such an outcome. It is amazing that nothing like it had happened before or after.

    But, I have to tell you ... 100 yards is a very small space when you are facing down an angry mob ... add in receiving rocks, bottles, perhaps incendiary devices, and the possibility of gunfire, and you have a recipe for retaliation.

    It shows considerable restraint by law enforcement today that we do NOT shoot protesters that launch rocks, projectiles, and Molotov cocktails at police as any of these items being hurled at the police by an individual would be justification for deadly force as any of them can be fatal.

    I don't support the actions at Kent State, nor do I condemn it because it was predictable. The commanders that allowed these boys to be put into that position should have been punished. But, back then, we were still learning how to deal with public protests, and the tactics used - confrontation and brute force - were the same used (minus the bayonets and volley fire) used during the draft riots in New York in 1863 on.

    It was tragic and should never have been allowed to happen ... but, like a car crash, circumstances sometimes play out to create a situation where a tragedy occurs.

    - Carl
    A Nor Cal Cop Sergeant

    "Make mine a double mocha ...
    And a croissant!"


    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Remembering Kent State

    I never thought I would say this, but... I'm with BOR on this one. Judging by the distance, I don't see how the national guardsmen were in danger.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Remembering Kent State

    Quote Quoting blueeagle
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    I never thought I would say this, but... I'm with BOR on this one. Judging by the distance, I don't see how the national guardsmen were in danger.
    I don't know that they were ... but, I can foresee that the fear was there.

    Anyone who has faced an angry mob, with no "out", can understand that fear. These shooters were neither seasoned soldiers nor cops ... they had retreated to their current position and were being advanced on - that lends itself to one conclusion: "They're coming to get me."

    So, do you wait until they are on top of you? or do you act when you feel there is still time to break them up?

    And, once again, the ones that were hit and killed are not necessarily the closest to the soldiers in question. In fact, as i recall, they fired at students in a parking lot and FURTHER away then those nearest them ... why they chose to fire in that direction, I cannot say.

    Why was the mob advancing on the soldiers? Don't they deserve some of the blame for the incident?

    Again, it was a tragedy, but there appears to have been no act of great evil perpetrated by the Guardsmen. Scared boys reacting badly ... or desperately. Is it possible that some member of Guard had venom in his heart for "commie hippies"? Sure. And it's also possible that the rumors of sniper fire is also true.

    We will never know the complete truth; the lefties will always believe that it was an evil conspiracy, and most of us will shake our heads and be thankful that such a thing is not likely to happen again. Since we cannot go back and read the minds and hearts of all those involved, we have the accounts of the hundreds who were in the protest march (certainly not unbiased) and the accounts of the Guardsmen (also not necessarily unbiased). Little neutral info is available, and most that has been written on it has been by those who profess a radical agenda both then and now.

    Again, I believe it is a credit to the NG and law enforcement of today that in the 38 years since, no repeat of this kind of incident has happened. Advances in tactics and technology has made this less likely to happen. But, we have the anarchists today that are actively seeking to provoke a Kent State like incident, and I am afraid that one day they just might get their wish. Sadly, when that happens, it won't be the masked Anarchist that bears the brunt of the bullets, but the weekend activist skull-full-of-mush protesting in front of him.

    - Carl
    A Nor Cal Cop Sergeant

    "Make mine a double mocha ...
    And a croissant!"


    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Remembering Kent State

    I thought these praticlaur kids were retreating? There was a large mob assembled to the left of the guard. I don't know the exact distance, but I know they were alot closer than 300 feet. Why did they chose to open fire on the ones who were running away???

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Remembering Kent State

    Quote Quoting blueeagle
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    I thought these praticlaur kids were retreating? There was a large mob assembled to the left of the guard. I don't know the exact distance, but I know they were alot closer than 300 feet. Why did they chose to open fire on the ones who were running away???
    I don't know that they were running away. The accounts I have read indicated the Guard had withdrawn to the point they were at.

    I don't know all the details, and I doubt there is any truly objective account out there anyway.

    As I said, this was a tragedy that was preventable. Sadly, there are instigators today that actively seek this result for their own political ends ... one day, they are going to get their wish in spite of increased training and technology.

    - Carl
    A Nor Cal Cop Sergeant

    "Make mine a double mocha ...
    And a croissant!"


    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns

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