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  1. #21
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    Default Re: California Speeding Ticket By Airplane

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    I do not know the nature under which you received any of your tickets, so I can't really comment on them.
    You have discussed several ticket situations with me on other forums and your comments have been similar to the ones above.

    I've had two in 29 years of driving ... my wife has had one ... most other people I know fall into the one or two category as well.
    Well, I guess that means that you haven't had much exposure first hand to the capricious nature of traffic tickets in CA... at least from a defendant's point of view.

    How many have you had?
    I'm not sure how that is relevant to the legal issues involved with airplane enforcement or any other traffic law issues... unless you are trying to establish that I have more experience than you with respect to being a defendant in a traffic court.

    I am bewildered ... if being bewildered as to why someone would actively seek such challenges is an emotional response, I plead guilty. Most of us seek to follow the rules and avoid confrontation ... but, I guess that's why it's only MOST of us, and not ALL of us.

    - Carl
    The emotional response is that when I present case law and statutory law that a cop or court may be acting inappropriately, you habitually fall back to the point of "how many tickets have you had?" rather than discuss the legal issues at hand. With respect to this thread... the answer to your question is... I have had zero airplane enforcement tickets.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: California Speeding Ticket By Airplane

    Quote Quoting 2JIMinCA
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    Until you know if radar was used and if there was a prima facie speed limit, or if the airplane measured speed by timing the vehicle between two fixed points, you have no basis to make such a statement.
    65 MPH is not a Prima Facie speed, it's a max speed. Assuming it's timed between hash marks or paced. If it's paced from an aircraft...is the speed on the plane calibrated to enforce highway speed? I'd go with timing. I'm not sure where the distinctive uniform argument for the aircraft obsever will go in court but I'm sure it'll get a chuckle. I'm pretty sure the officer who wrote the cite was wearing the proper uniform and driving the proper enforcement vehicle.

    No one got tricked into speeding, hell, he admits to speeding on a regular basis and then slowing down where the CHP usually is. The big black and white signs "SPEED ENFORCED BY AIRCRAFT" should be taken more seriously and people shouldn't be shocked when they get cited by one.

    Every time I have worked with an aircraft I have always been on the shoulder of the highway, in plain sight. Too bad the offense occured a mile back...

    It would be a TOTALLY different story if someone was cited for exceeding the speed limit when they ACTUALLY were not (that's what 90% of them say). When they admit to speed...suck it up and own up to it.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: California Speeding Ticket By Airplane

    Sniper,

    If you are insinuating that you are a cop, you are either not a California cop or you are a really bad California cop.

    40802. (a) A "speed trap" is either of the following:
    (1) A particular section of a highway measured as to distance and
    with boundaries marked, designated, or otherwise determined in order
    that the speed of a vehicle may be calculated by securing the time it
    takes the vehicle to travel the known distance.
    It is obvious that you don't have a very extensive knowlege of the California Vehicle Code. CA has many unique things in its vehicle code... particularly with respect to speed traps.

    By the way... if you really are a cop, I can understand your "own up to it" attitude. That eliminates the need for you to actually understand the laws you try to enforce. Who needs people defending themselves in court when all they have to do is "suck it up". I bet that would make your job much easier.

  4. #24
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    Sep 2005
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    California
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    14,763

    Default Re: California Speeding Ticket By Airplane

    I've always taught my kids to own up to their mistakes - even if there was a way to weasel out of it, they should own up. Most cops feel that way. If Sniper is a cop, THAT is where the attitude comes from. Some - like me - felt that way long before they became cops. It has nothing to do with expecting anyone to cow down or roll over, and everything to do with being responsible for one's own actions and not trying to seek some way out of responsibility.

    Yeah, you have a legal right to fight, contest, twist, and do whatever you want to do within the law to get out of a citation. Feel free. Most of us don't have the time and desire to go that distance ... most of us don't get that many tickets, either.

    So, go right on ahead, Jim, continue your fight ... we'll continue issuing citations ... and I'll still be bewildered why you find this to be such a worthwhile hobby.

    Jim, the last word is yours - I'm done here.

    - Carl
    A Nor Cal Cop Sergeant

    "Make mine a double mocha ...
    And a croissant!"


    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns

  5. #25
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    Default Re: California Speeding Ticket By Airplane

    I guess I have been amazed at how so many people... especially LEO's just have this "own up to it" attitude.

    When a citizen has an incident with a cop, you just say "take it like a man"... regardless of the legality of the ticket or whether the person was actually committing an offense. However, when the State is acting clearly outside of its authority or failing to do what the law requires of it, do you turn that same rightous indignation towards the State? NO!! You still look at the citizen and say "take it like a man!!"

    For all of you "take it like a man" thinkers... how many of you have looked at their speedometer, realized they were 10 - 15 mph over the speed limit and then drove to the police station to turn themselves in? Does your integrity only count if you get caught? Seems pretty hypocritical to me.

    As far as time and effort to "go the distance" for beating a ticket... it doesn't take that much time or effort. But, to me, justice is worth the time and effort. However, judging by the number of posts I see from you on this and several other sites, you have the same hobby. You just sit on the other side of the fence.

    Go ahead and issue your citations. I'll continue to educate you in court. When LEOs and the courts start obeying the law themselves, I'll loose interest in this topic.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: California Speeding Ticket By Airplane

    Quote Quoting 2JIMinCA
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    For all of you "take it like a man" thinkers... how many of you have looked at their speedometer, realized they were 10 - 15 mph over the speed limit and then drove to the police station to turn themselves in? Does your integrity only count if you get caught? Seems pretty hypocritical to me.
    Or how many have turned themselves in for driving drunk? For driving 25 mph over the speed limit? Passing over double yellows? Killing an innocent person in a head on collision where excessive speed is the PCF?

    Of course no one turns themselves in. That is why we have a job and by us having a job...you have a job.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: California Speeding Ticket By Airplane

    Quote Quoting sniper
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    Or how many have turned themselves in for driving drunk? For driving 25 mph over the speed limit? Passing over double yellows? Killing an innocent person in a head on collision where excessive speed is the PCF?

    Of course no one turns themselves in. That is why we have a job and by us having a job...you have a job.
    The fact that no one turns themselves in is the point. The "take it like a man" philosophy doesn't hold water. No one "takes it like a man". They simply don't want to go through the effort of challenging the State when they get caught. It is more a factor of the effort involved rather than the morality involved. So, to give lofty speeches about "owning up to mistakes" is just BS.

    In our country, the people have more than a right to challenge the Government... they have a duty. Those who would sit back and advise that a person accept an illegal conviction because it only cost a couple hundred dollars only ensure that future illegal convictions will occur. We have a duty to challenge the State when they act beyond their authority to protect ourselves and future defendants. It really angers me when someone tries to impugn my integrity because I refuse to accept an illegal conviction... especially when it comes from a LEO. That, in my opinion, is a dangerous attitude. LEOs who want to be unchallenged in their enforcement of the law is scary.

    As for Carl's statement:
    I do not know the nature under which you received any of your tickets, so I can't really comment on them.
    ...one only needs to take a look at this thread: http://forum.freeadvice.com/showthread.php?t=389196 . In it, I describe how I went to court to defend myself against an illegal ticket and how the cop actually was too irresponsible to know that the evidence he presented to the judge made him an incompetent witness and stripped the court of its authority (as per the Vehicle Code and case law). When the court was presented with irrefutable evidence of this, they simply swept the matter under the carpet. But, did Carl respond with outrage towards the irresponsible cop and the blind court? No... his response was simply:
    It would be so much easier and less time consuming to just adhere to the posted limit ...
    To be clear, I do not habitually drive to excessive speeds, nor have I ever encouraged anyone to be irresponsible on the road. However, once a person is drug into the judicial system, I do advocate that the defendant hold the State accountable just as the State is trying to hold them accountable.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: California Speeding Ticket By Airplane

    I think we are far off the topic of this thread.

    The violation happened on a freeway with the posted, maximum speed of 65 mph (NOT prima facie). Your case with 60 (prima facie) mph is different Jim. The CHP observer in the plane would probably be more than willing to explain how the violators speed was determined and that it does NOT constitute a speed trap as defined by California.

    People v. Studley
    However, after a close reading of the statutes in question, we find the Legislature's antipathy toward any radar-based prosecution of any speed law violation in any posted zone, where the prima facie speed limit is not justified by proof of a timely engineering survey, is absolute and unequivocal.

    This case does not pertain to the statewide, absoloute speed limit, which was what the violator was, or we can assume, was charged with. The posted speed, we can assume is 65 miles per hour (because it is a toll expressway).

    ps. you may think I may write "illegal" citations. I however will never write a tag unless I am 100% positive the "accused" violated a the specific violation charged. After issuing a cite, I explain to the accused that they have every right to have this matter heard in a court of law. Many of them simply say, "I don't have a chance, its my word against yours, I'll lose anyway." Now is that a LEO's problem that a large majority of the population is not willing to go to court to uphold their rights? No, its their right not to go. You make it seem like every person has a duty, or is obligated to fight the system every time they are accused of doing something.

    On another note, I have never lost in court, including DUI's.

  9. #29
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    100

    Default Re: California Speeding Ticket By Airplane

    Sniper,

    I agree with your statement concerning Studley. However, Studley likely isn't a good case to reference in this particular case. There are numerous cases where the courts have recognized the Legislature's and the people's disdain for "punishment after the fact" type of speed enforcement. That's exactly what aircraft patrolling does. Furthermore, I can't imagine just how the airplane can take a speed reading of a vehicle in a legal manner as per CA law. If they do, I'd like to be educated on how it's done.

    I don't think I said that you (or Carl) have written any illegal citations. I would have nothing to base that on. I did say that illegal citations are written every day and the majority of those illegal citations result in a conviction or traffic school... both of which is a winner for the State. I also said that people do have a duty to challenge the State when it acts outside of its authority. That does not mean "every time they are acused of doing something".

    I do think that too many cops and courts simply do not understand the law or they choose to ignore the inconvenient parts of it. As a quick example, the vehicle code requires:

    40803(b) In any prosecution under this code of a charge involving the
    speed of a vehicle, where enforcement involves the use of radar or
    other electronic devices which measure the speed of moving objects,
    the prosecution shall establish, as part of its prima facie case,
    that the evidence or testimony presented is not based upon a
    speedtrap as defined in paragraph (2) of subdivision (a) of Section
    40802.
    That means the prosecution has to prove that a speed trap did not exist in EVERY case involving speed. It doesn't say, "just the cases where the defendant requests it". Now, how many times have you seen a prosecution where 40803 was ignored? I would say the overwhelming majority of them.

    Please don't mistake my passion for personal criticism. I don't have any ill-will towards you or Carl or any other particular LEO. I do, however, have a problem with a system that tramples the rights of the citizens out of a desire for expediancy.

    I do hope the OP in this thread files a request for discovery and gets some information concerning the method used for determining speed. If it is inappropriate, I do hope the OP challenges the ticket and wins. I just hope he doesn't behave like the timid sheep that you speak of.

  10. #30

    Default Re: California Speeding Ticket By Airplane

    Erm, Guys?

    Have you ever *seen* the CHP plane?

    The original CHP planes were Cessna 182s, painted BLACK with WHITE doors, a CHP logon on the door, with WHITE wings with "HIGHWAY PATROL" painted on the bottom and top of the wings. Yup, painted EXACTLY like the cars.

    The new aircraft (they have a bunch of them) are Cessna 206s. They are painted WHITE with blue stripes, a large blue vertical stabilizer with CHP on it, and the same HIGHWAY PATROL logos on the bottoms of the wings.

    Note that the CHP also employs cars that are painted white, baby blue, and silver-- they have the same logos on them, but don't have the black and white paint jobs. According to the CHP, this is to prevent trucks from IDing the vehicles.


    With regard to the officers in question:

    The pilot is a police officer (he's a friend of mine) and wears a blue jumpsuit, typically.

    HOWEVER, there is also a second police officer in the plane, who does the timing. HE is in full CHP uniform.

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