Pennsylvania Suspension Credit For Out-Of-State Driver

[thehighhat]

Any ideas how I can avoid this problem.....

Background:

Licensed in state NM. Clean driving record.

Visit state PA in July 2005. Borrowed friend's car. Pulled over for not using turn signal while making a right turn. Also fined heavily because the car had invalid registration. (I had no idea the registration was invalid.)

Found guilty. September 2005. Paid all fines by October 2005.

Went back to my state and have been there ever since.

My current license is up for renewal in May 2007. Went to get renewed and was denied because PA lists me as "ineligible".

Called PA motor vehicle to get answers. (NOW FOR THE FUN PART)

It turns out that my privilege to drive in PA was suspended in November 2005. A notice was sent to my last known address, which was extracted from my old driver record in PA.

(I was licensed in PA back in 1997. I moved out of PA in 1998 and secured a license in another state and surrendered my PA license at that time.)

So, I *never* received this letter stating I need to serve a 90-day suspension because it went to the wrong address.

Now, understand that I have been suspended in PA since Nov 2005; however, I do not get CREDIT for serving the suspension UNTIL I ACKNOWLEDGE that I am indeed suspended.

The credited time starts only AFTER I acknowledge it.

This means that the PA hold on my national driver record would last at least 3 months from now... therefore that I cannot renew my NM license before it expires in May.

This leaves me with two months of no driving privilege anywhere, instead of just PA.

My questions for you all:

1. Is there any way to get credited for service since I AM indeed suspended already and have been for over 400 days?

2. Is there any way to retain my NM driver privilege (ie get renewed) despite the PA hold?


The goofiest part is that the PA DMV said that they could not get my current address from the court records because doing so is against the law. Yet somehow they managed to link me to an old driver record.

It would have been a non-issue to return the acknowledge an not driven in PA for 90-days... but they failed to notify me.



PLEASE ADVISE.



And lesson learned: never drive anyone's vehicle. and *always* use a turn signal in PA

[blewis]

Maybe you can explain something to me. You stated

A notice was sent to my last known address, which was extracted from my old driver record in PA.

(I was licensed in PA back in 1997. I moved out of PA in 1998 and secured a license in another state and surrendered my PA license at that time.)

So, you were stopped in PA in 2005. You produced you NM license at that time, were found guilty, paid the fine, and returned to NM. You had absolutely NO knowledge that PA was also going to suspend your license, is that right?

Then -- almost miraculously -- PA figured out that you once had a PA license (back in '97). They figured this out how? (1) Your name is so unique that there could only be one in the entire world, and they noticed that you once lived in PA? Or (2) They tracked you through your NM license, and NM told them that you surrendered your PA license when you moved to NM, gave PA your former PA license number, but didn't bother to pass along your current address. Then PA, thinking that you must still be living in PA, sent the suspension notice to your last known address in PA -- even though they clearly knew you resided in NM, had contacted NM, but had failed to get your current address from NM.

Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to me.

To answer your questions, you'll probably have to contact an attorney in NM who can work with another attorney in PA to get everything straightened out. Or, wait your 3 months and then go renew your license.

Good luck,
Barry

[lwpat]

While PA can suspend your right to drive in PA, they cannot suspend your right to drive in NM. You need to talk to a surervisor at the NM DMV or get advice from a NM attorney. If that doesn't work, try an attorney in PA to get you reinstated.

[thehighhat]

Maybe you can explain something to me. You stated
So, you were stopped in PA in 2005. You produced you NM license at that time, were found guilty, paid the fine, and returned to NM. You had absolutely NO knowledge that PA was also going to suspend your license, is that right?

EXACTLY! Absolutely none of the information I was given even hinted at a suspension of any sort.

Then -- almost miraculously -- PA figured out that you once had a PA license (back in '97). They figured this out how?

Believe it or not, I actually did not catch this fact at first. I called PennDOT earlier this week and did not think anything of it. My wife raised this point as well. I have no explanation how PA link my name to the old driver record. My only guess is via a SSN.

I simply cannot remember if I provided the ticketing officer or the court my SSN.

(1) Your name is so unique that there could only be one in the entire world, and they noticed that you once lived in PA? Or (2) They tracked you through your NM license, and NM told them that you surrendered your PA license when you moved to NM, gave PA your former PA license number, but didn't bother to pass along your current address. Then PA, thinking that you must still be living in PA, sent the suspension notice to your last known address in PA -- even though they clearly knew you resided in NM, had contacted NM, but had failed to get your current address from NM.

Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to me.

EXACTLY!

No my name is not that unique... it's not trivial either, but certainly there are others (eg a google search brings up dozens)


Yes, I think it is all a bunch of crap.

Here is the time line. Last licensed in PA in 1997. Moved to IL in 1998. Surrendered PA license in 1998 and secured IL license. Moved to NM and surrended IL licensed in 2003.

PennDOT somehow has my PA license as expiring in 2001!

To answer your questions, you'll probably have to contact an attorney in NM who can work with another attorney in PA to get everything straightened out. Or, wait your 3 months and then go renew your license.

Good luck,
Barry

And for fun. PennDOT claimed that it had no rights to obtain my current address from the PA courts or from any records of this incident. However, if I verbally gave it to them over the phone they could update my record.

ALSO, PennDOT claims that I have no rights to drive *anywhere*, not just PA. Whereas the NM MVD says I am indeed permitted to drive in NM.

[thehighhat]

While PA can suspend your right to drive in PA, they cannot suspend your right to drive in NM. You need to talk to a surervisor at the NM DMV or get advice from a NM attorney. If that doesn't work, try an attorney in PA to get you reinstated.

Agreed. I have been trying to make headway with PennDOT for this past week. I will start talking with the NM folks next week.

I did place one call to the NM MVD and did not make much progress. The clerk's position was that I should just sign up for the suspension and wait it out.

ARGH!



At this point, I simply do not trust the competency of PA to handle this appropriately.

For all I know, after serving the suspension, I will be denied reinstatement for some oddball reason...

[HA!... I say this because the PA suspension acknowledgment forms says that I agree to pay the reinstatement fee for my license and produce registration & insurance documents BEFORE getting restored.... BUT I do not have any vehicles/property/licenses in PA... I just KNOW they would botch the reinstatement..... oops... sorry about the rant.]

[blewis]

oops... sorry about the rant.]

No need to be sorry. It can all be VERY frustrating. In fact, if you were an attorney with some civil torte, federal and interstate law experience -- and a lot of free time on your hands -- IMHO, I think you've got a pretty good civil case against PennDOT, should you, indeed, have to spend a lot of money to get your license back, not to mention loss of income as a result.

So let me see if I've got this straight now:

1) PennDOT gets notice from the PA court about your violation in 2005. This notice includes your NM drivers license, but, presumably, not you NM address. And even though it was not court-ordered, PennDOT decides to suspend your right to drive in PA.
2) So PennDOT contacts NM DMV. Instead of obtaining your current NM address, however, they find out that you once had an IL license, so they obtain your former IL driver's license number.
3) PennDOT then contacts the IL DMV and determines that you once had a PA license, so they obtain your former PA license number.
4) PennDOT then sends your license suspension notice to the last known PA address they had on file from 7 years earlier.

And this is standard procedure in PA?

I don't think they could have tracked it through your SSN, since it would violate Right to Privacy laws for the SSA to give out your former addresses (if they even have them) for something as minor as a traffic ticket. And, if they did contact the SSA, why wouldn't they have just obtained your current NM address, rather than a PA address that was seven years old?

It appears to me that PennDOT violated federal case law by failing to provide proper notification before suspending your license. (C.f. BELL v. BURSON, 402 U.S. 535, 29 L. Ed. 2d 90, 91 S. Ct. 1586, 1591 (1971) in which the Supreme Court held that "except in emergency situations, due process requires that when a state seeks to terminate a person's license to drive, it must afford notice and an opportunity for a hearing appropriate to the nature of the case BEFORE the termination becomes effective"). It does not appear that you were afforded either -- in fact, you had your hearing and there was NO mention that the state wanted to suspend your license. And sending the notice to an address that was 7 years old -- when there was some good chance that you may not have been the same guy who had a license in PA all those years ago.

As I said before, you may end up having to spend a great deal of money on attorneys (or wait the 3 months and then seek reinstatement). Plus, the attorney route might take longer than 3 months anyway.

Again, good luck,
Barry