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  1. #1

    Default Making a U-Turn After Turning Onto a Side Street

    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California

    Hi Everyone. My first post.

    Here's the only section I was alleged to violate: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21461.htm

    I was in the left turn lane facing a "no U turn sign". I didn't make a U turn, but I made a left turn (as permitted) and went onto a side street which had no signs and no yellow dividing lines. I made a U turn there, then stopped at the stop sign, and made a right hand turn. So the net effect was a U turn, but I never made a U turn in front of the sign which showed "no U turn". My vehicle path was like a reverse "P", and not a "U". The officer also said that I shouldn't have made a U turn in the business district, but he couldn't tell me why the area was defined as a "business district". Further, the Vehicle Code is not clear that a U-turn is always prohibited in a business district. Link: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21651.htm

    Where I did make the U-turn, many cars also do the same thing and there are many tire tracks demonstrating that. I took videos and pictures documenting the tire tracks of the U-turns and cars doing exactly what I did, but realize that just because other drivers do it doesn't necessarily make it legal.

    My driving record is clean - - - no tickets, no fault accidents.

    I can plead not guilty and go before a Commissioner, or pay about $300 and go to traffic school and keep a clean record (if there's no conviction in the ensuing 18 months). My friends say go before the Commissioner, but others say if there's a conviction, the right to go to Traffic School is lost. So if I lose the case, seems like I'd lose the prep time, two court appearances, money, and still have a point on my record.

    What would you do?

    Thank you!!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Making a U-Turn After Turning Onto a Side Street

    The "business district" thing sometimes has more to do with city traffic laws than state traffic laws.

    However, you got cited for something you technically didn't do.

    If you get the officer on the stand and you get him to admit you turned around on a side street and not at the point where it was prohibited, you might have a good chance at getting acquitted.

    No way to predict.

    California is broke and its judges seek revenue enhancement.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Making a U-Turn After Turning Onto a Side Street

    Actually, a "business district" is defined under section 235 of the (California) State code. And section 22102 also of the California Vehicle code prohibits a u-turn in a business district. A u-turn is also prohibited in a residence district so unless this was out in the boonies, and regardless of how you describe it, that entire combination you did there was in violation of at minimum, one law.

    A u-turn is defined under CVC 665.5 as

    665.5 A “U-turn” is the turning of a vehicle upon a highway so as to proceed in the opposite direction whether accomplished by one continuous movement or not.

    That is a pretty broad definition where the "one continuous movement" means there was no three point turn and aside from the stop at the stop sign, it sounds as if it was all done in one movement. That still won't make much of a difference.

    I think it will boil down to a subjective argument depending on how far into the other street you drove. You're free to make the argument that you were wrongfully cited but in the chance that it might not fly with the judge, there is no guarantee that you will be allowed the traffic school option and so it certainly includes some risk in fighting it.

    Two more points just to help put things in proper perspective... (1) The possibility that other cars make the same turn does not make it right or legal and a video is not likely to help your case any. And (2) your clean driving record really means very little since it does not immunize you from committing a violation nor does it imply that you've never violated the law. Only that you have not been caught. Fact is, we all start out with a clean driving record. Some go through a lifetime without any tickets or accidents, others develop as knack for violation points.

    Quote Quoting adjusterjack
    California is broke and its judges seek revenue enhancement
    What is "revenue enhancement" and are you suggesting that judges will wrongfully convict a defendant in an attempt to help the state get out of debt?

    You say that so matter of factly, as if it is a forgone conclusion that regardless of what the cop was forced to admit, the end result is a guilty verdict...., because this judge will seek revenue enhancement, and yet you also suggested that the OP should put the cop on the stand to get him to admit to whatever.... What would be the point of that exercise?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Making a U-Turn After Turning Onto a Side Street

    Excellent well-written reply. But U-turns are not always prohibited in a "business district". See below. Now to find, read, and comprehend 21651. Don't understand all of 22102, and whether or not I was in compliance.

    ===============
    22102. No person in a business district shall make a U-turn, except at an intersection, or on a divided highway where an opening has been provided in accordance with Section 21651. This turning movement shall be made as close as practicable to the extreme left-hand edge of the lanes moving in the driver's direction of travel immediately prior to the initiation of the turning movement, when more than one lane in the direction of travel is present.
    ===============


    As for the "continuous movement", I made a complete stop at the stop sign and waited for a few seconds before turning right. So that is not a "continuous movement".

    As for how far I drove, it was deeper into the side street than the other tire marks. How is the "far" judged ?

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Making a U-Turn After Turning Onto a Side Street

    Quote Quoting CaliforniaDriver
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    But U-turns are not always prohibited in a "business district".
    While its true I did not type out the exclusion, I also linked the code section for reference. Moreover, the reason why I did not mention the one possible exclusion, that being a u-turn at an intersection, is simply because you are not claiming that you made the u-turn at the intersection. So that exclusion does not help you in any way. If your claim is that you made the u-turn at the intersection, therefore it was lawful per 22102, then you were clearly in violation of 21461 because of a sign prohibiting a u-turn at the intersection. Your claim is that you didn't. Your claim is that you made the u-turn away from the intersection, and so there was no need to mention the exclusion since it simply does not apply. As for the 21651 exclusion, imagine a raised median dividing the street you turned onto, any opening in that median (a section where there is no raised median that is also paved and leads to the opposite lanes of traffic, unless there is no sign prohibiting a u-turn through that opening, then a u-turn is lawful even if it were in a business district.,

    Point is, you either made a u-turn at the intersection, which implies you violated 21461, or you made a u-turn away from the intersection which would have been in violation of 22102. And hence my comment stating: "regardless of how you describe it, that entire combination you did there was in violation of at minimum, one law".

    Now, you are free to assume that it will be as easy as you walking into court, waiting until the officer testifies to the same description you offered, and when it comes your turn, you simply present that you made your u-turn away from the intersection, that the officer should have cited you for 22102 instead of 21461, and since he chose 21461, and due to the fact that the elements required to prove your guilt of 21461 require proof that your u-turn was made at the intersection, which as far as you are concerned did not happen, then there is no proof that you violated 21461 and thus that charge must be dismissed.

    Unfortunately, it would be great if things were so simple... If you'll allow me to admit that being as anal as I am, I usually like to complicate matters some by exploring other possibilities that might not necessarily allow you such an easy out. Not because I want you to lose; it makes little difference to me either way. Some people see this as my being biased against drivers and in favor of police... Far from it. Instead, and if this was me fighting this, I like to prepare for any possibility that has a reasonable chance of happening, which would likely include consideration of alternative theories to the super easy dismissal.

    So here is an alternative theory... I think it is easy to assume that the cop made an error by citing you for something you did not do... But I also think it makes more sense to assume that he knew exactly what he was doing. In fact, he informed you of his being aware of the other likely violation we are discussing here, that being an unlawful u-tun in a business district, per 22102. So if my analogy is correct, that you either were in violation of 21461 or you were in violation of 22102, then the reason that he cited you for 21461 was simply because in his view, you did not drive far enough onto the other street to have your turn qualify as having been made on the other street and not in the intersection, whereas if it appeared to him that you did in fact drive far into the other street, and made your u-turn there, then he would have cited you for 22102 in violation of a prohibition from making u-turns in a business district.

    This would still closely fit the events as you described them, that he pulled you over, told you that "you made an illegal u-turn in violation of the no u-turn sign", your reply was "no, officer, I did not make my u-turn in that intersection, instead, I drove onto the cross street and made a u-turn there", and this is when he told you about u-turns being prohibited in a business district, meaning "if you did make your u-turn onto that cross street and since it too was illegal, I would have cited you for 22102 illegal u-turn in a business district" (or words to that effect).

    Quote Quoting CaliforniaDriver
    View Post
    As for the "continuous movement", I made a complete stop at the stop sign and waited for a few seconds before turning right. So that is not a "continuous movement".
    Let me rephrase what I posted again. Note the code section defining a u-turn states:

    ... whether accomplished by one continuous movement or not.


    So whether it was one continuous movement or not, it would still qualify as a u-turn if you had started headed in one direction, turned and ended up headed in another direction... And for the meaning of one continuous movement, stopping at a stop sign would not change the fact that it was a u-turn. Neither would stopping, reversing and the moving forward again as would be done when making a 3 point turn. However, and as defined by the appellate department in People v. McGuire, 80 Cal. App. Supp. 3d 1 - Cal: Court of Appeal 1978, the only way to get out from under the definition of a u-turn, is when making a left turn into a drive way, completely getting off the street then backing out onto the street and proceeding in the opposite direction, would break that turn into "more than one continuous movement" but more importantly, it would remove any presumption that it was in fact a u-turn, and instead, would qualify it as a left turn into a driveway, followed by reentry onto the street by reversing.

    Quote Quoting CaliforniaDriver
    View Post
    As for how far I drove, it was deeper into the side street than the other tire marks. How is the "far" judged ?
    You are still trying to justify your action based on what others do. The actions of other people, if deemed unlawful are not valid justification nor are they a valid defense for you if you choose to do the same. If people shoplifted from one store, it does not mean I can go to the same store and shoplift and escape punishment, even if they stole $5 worth of goods and I only stole $3.

    As for a definition of "far", I don't think you're going to find one definitive definition anywhere. This is all a subjective matter and the analogy I provided here is based upon the officer testifying that you made a u-turn in violation of a traffic control device prohibiting such movement. So "far" is not likely to be an element that is mentioned or discussed by him. Once he finishes testifying, you can then bring up your claim that you turned left, made a u-turn onto the other street, stopped back at the intersection and proceeded after checking cross traffic. At this point in time, it then boils down to being your word against his, and more often than not, the court is likely to accept his version as being more accurate simply because he has little vested in the outcome where as you, would prefer it you could avoid being found guilty and having to pay a fine.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Making a U-Turn After Turning Onto a Side Street

    Thank you for clarifying. You write well.

    Okay, what would be a reason to plead non-guilty and take this before a Commissioner ? Just hoping the citing officer is a no-show ? Do you think the facts and codes are so compelling that you would simply pay the $300 and attend (or go on line to) Traffic School ? Is there a risk of getting a "worse deal" if this is brought to "trial" ? What exactly would you do if this happened to you ?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Making a U-Turn After Turning Onto a Side Street

    Quote Quoting CaliforniaDriver
    View Post
    Thank you for clarifying. You write well.

    Okay, what would be a reason to plead non-guilty and take this before a Commissioner ? Just hoping the citing officer is a no-show ? Do you think the facts and codes are so compelling that you would simply pay the $300 and attend (or go on line to) Traffic School ? Is there a risk of getting a "worse deal" if this is brought to "trial" ? What exactly would you do if this happened to you ?
    I only write well to those who are capable of comprehending. There are those who may not be as fortunate (or willing) to understand...

    The only reason to take this to trial is if you feel lucky enough that the officer might not appear and expect the court to dismiss the case. Keep ion mind that assuming there is a possibility that the case can be continued, without violating any time limits then the judge might choose to do so in spite of any objections by you. I am not going to offer an estimate on how often that might happen simply because I'd be taking a guess. You should understand that appearing in court to testify after issuing a citation is, by definition, on of the job duties an officer has. Do they not appear sometimes? Sure... Can it be predicted? Only if you're a good psychic.

    I have not heard the officer's version of events that led to the citation. While I did do some speculating in my previous post, and while you did not refute anything I suggested, I'll only assume that his version varies from yours, and that there is at least some legitimacy to the charge. This is a subjective case as I described above and as is always the case, his word and his opinion will carry much more weight than yours and if you're assuming that your simply going in to tell the story you offered here will shed any doubt on his version, then you're probably being a bit too overly optimistic.

    You can also try and fight this by way of a trial by declaration (LINK), and by doing so you'll get a second opportunity for a court trial if the results of the first try were unfruitful. Although in those cases, and while there are set time limits for each step of the process, the court rules that set those limits also allow the court to extend them without official notice or on the record justification to you as the defendant. So the process might and often does stretch out for several months.

    Quote Quoting CaliforniaDriver
    View Post
    Is there a risk of getting a "worse deal" if this is brought to "trial" ? What exactly would you do if this happened to you ?
    While it maybe possible that a fine can increase, the chances of that happening are extremely low. But rather that looking at this case as having potential for a higher risk if you were to go to trial and losing, think of the case as possibly having some advantages to not taking it to trial. Especially with it being as subjective, and you not having as solid a story to assume you may prevail,the odds of you possibly getting some sort of fine reduction if you were to plead guilty and close it out, are in my opinion higher that the chances that the officer might not appear at a trial. But keep in mind that I cannot offer any assurance that this will happen, or if it does, how much a reduction you might see but the way I see it is, you still do not have to decide what to do right now... Instead, schedule an appearance (for an arraignment), and on that day as you sit there waiting for your case to get called, and as you watch other people going through the process, you can tell if the judge is offering reductions or not, or if s/he is granting any for those who ask, which should give you an idea as to whether you feel his offers are lucrative enough for you to accept what s/he may potentially offer you, plus choose traffic school and put it all behind you... Or whether you want to take a stab at hoping the officer might/might not appear.

    As you make that should, you should keep in mind that if you go this route (by contesting it), you may be making a pass at not only that possible fine reduction, but the fact that traffic school is an option to you now, does not mean you will have the same freedom to make that choice after a trial. Traffic school becomes a discretionary matter for the court to decide once the case goes to trial. And while a judge might allow such a choice for the asking at that point, s/he has the freedom to deny your request and would not be under any obligation to explain the reasons for denying your request.A simple "request denied" will suffice and you'd be left with a point on your record.

    In other words, and while there might not be any potential for a higher penalty after a trial, there are incentives to not going to trial if you have a weak case or no case at all. Hope this helps...

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    Default Re: Making a U-Turn After Turning Onto a Side Street

    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    I have not heard the officer's version of events that led to the citation. While I did do some speculating in my previous post, and while you did not refute anything I suggested, I'll only assume that his version varies from yours, and that there is at least some legitimacy to the charge. This is a subjective case as I described above and as is always the case, his word and his opinion will carry much more weight than yours and if you're assuming that your simply going in to tell the story you offered here will shed any doubt on his version, then you're probably being a bit too overly optimistic.
    This seems like an situation where receiving discovery from the Police Department would help the defendant decide whether or not to plead guilty or innocent. If the OP doesn't even know what the police officer believed happened prior to the citation, it's difficult to determine if there is a valid defense, let alone if he was ticketed for what he thought he was.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Making a U-Turn After Turning Onto a Side Street

    Quote Quoting themadnorwegian
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    This seems like an situation where receiving discovery from the Police Department would help the defendant decide whether or not to plead guilty or innocent. If the OP doesn't even know what the police officer believed happened prior to the citation, it's difficult to determine if there is a valid defense, let alone if he was ticketed for what he thought he was.

    What would be there to discover ? If there are notes, they are brief and on the citation copy. As pointed out above, this event was a non-continuous movement in which the net effect was a U-turn. However, an attorney-friend is encouraging me to take this to trial because he thinks I'll prevail based upon the CVC. Will find out more and post here in the next few days. This may boil down to simply not wanting to put in so much time for prep and appearances, thus proceeding with the fine and traffic school irrespective of "right vs. wrong". Then if a citation occurs in the next 18 months, fighting that one.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Making a U-Turn After Turning Onto a Side Street

    Quote Quoting themadnorwegian
    View Post
    This seems like an situation where receiving discovery from the Police Department would help the defendant decide whether or not to plead guilty or innocent. If the OP doesn't even know what the police officer believed happened prior to the citation, it's difficult to determine if there is a valid defense, let alone if he was ticketed for what he thought he was.
    I'm not sure why you feel "the OP doesn't even know what the police officer believed happened prior to the citation"!

    So can you elaborate on why it is you think he doesn't know what the officer believed happened before the citation?




    Quote Quoting CaliforniaDriver
    View Post
    What would be there to discover ? If there are notes, they are brief and on the citation copy. As pointed out above, this event was a non-continuous movement in which the net effect was a U-turn. However, an attorney-friend is encouraging me to take this to trial because he thinks I'll prevail based upon the CVC. Will find out more and post here in the next few days. This may boil down to simply not wanting to put in so much time for prep and appearances, thus proceeding with the fine and traffic school irrespective of "right vs. wrong". Then if a citation occurs in the next 18 months, fighting that one.
    It should be noted that there are times when an officer might make additional notes on the back of his copy of the citation AFTER your copy was separated and handed to you and you drove off. And a request for discovery asking for a copy of that might provide additional clues as to what he saw. While I might agree that notes are likely to be brief as there is nothing unusual about a no u-turn sign citation at an intersection with a no U-turn sign. But I have also learned not to dismiss TMN's comments as I do remember one time when he did make a valid point. (He knows I'm kidding about that too (he was wrong then too)).

    Also, it should be noted again that whether the movement was continuous or not, it makes no difference as to whether it qualified as a u-turn or not.

    It would be interesting to read what your friend might suggest as a different approach than what was discussed here. So hopefully, you'll keep us updated.

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