Ran stop sign in parking lot in Tennessee, ticketed

[jasonsmith]

There is a small mall in my town located in Tennessee. The building is square and surrounded by a private parking lot. There is a set of doors on each side. Well, one set of doors has stop signs outside them at the side walk. Kinda like you see at Walmart.

Anyways, I went through the stop sign and didn't stop. A city cop was standing out there and jumped in his cop car and pulled me over and gave me a ticket for running a stop sign.

Question, is this a legit ticket? It is my understanding that the government can't enforce signs that are on private property. Though, I'm not sure.

[Mr. Knowitall]

It my experience, when the police ticket for ignoring a stop sign on private property, it's usually in relation to an accident. Privately posted stop signs also often vary from state laws and regulations as to size and proper placement, making the issuance of tickets tricky. I tried to find out what Tennessee's laws say, and the Tennessee Code is linked from here, but the Lexis interface is lousy on every browser I tried. Maybe you'll have more luck with it from your computer.

No matter what the law, it makes sense to give greater deference to stop signs.

[Maxima Lover]

You should try to find your city's traffic control schedule. It will show all the places that traffic control devices are supposed to be in place in your city. If that one isn't on their, most likely (depending on how the statute or ordinance is written) your ticket should be dismissed as another statute will designate that only certain people can put up stop signs legally and only at the places listed.

If you give me your city and what the violation number was, I might be able to find out exactly for you.

[jasonsmith]

It my experience, when the police ticket for ignoring a stop sign on private property, it's usually in relation to an accident. Privately posted stop signs also often vary from state laws and regulations as to size and proper placement, making the issuance of tickets tricky. I tried to find out what Tennessee's laws say, and the Tennessee Code is linked from here, but the Lexis interface is lousy on every browser I tried. Maybe you'll have more luck with it from your computer.

No matter what the law, it makes sense to give greater deference to stop signs.

Here's were I found out Tennessee codes from:

http://198.187.128.12/tennessee/lpex...s-main.htm&2.0

And here's the code I found:

55-8-149. Requirements for stop signs - Vehicles and streetcars must stop at stop signs - Penalty.

(a) Every stop sign shall bear the word "Stop" in letters not less than eight inches (8") in height and such sign shall at nighttime be rendered luminous by steady or flashing internal illumination, or by a fixed floodlight projected on the face of the sign, or by efficient reflecting elements on the face of the sign.

(b) Every stop sign shall be erected as near as practicable to the nearest line of the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if there is no crosswalk, then as close as practicable to the nearest line of the roadway.

(c) Every driver of a vehicle and every operator of a streetcar approaching a stop sign shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or in the event there is no crosswalk, shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, then at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver or operator has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway before entering the intersection, except when directed to proceed by a police officer or traffic control signal.

(d) A violation of this section is a Class C misdemeanor.

Tennessee has adopted into law the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD). Tennessee has their own supplement, but I can't find a copy.

See, the stop signs are not being used to assign right-of-way at an intersection, but more of a speed control device. The MUTCD states that stop signs cannot be used as a speed control device. There is yellow diagnol lines running in between the signs in the parking lot. One may argue this is a crosswalk, but the MUTCD states that crosswalks have to be marked with WHITE paint. And if things don't follow the MUTCD, then it is considered unlawful. More on the "crosswalk" down the page.

I also found this:

55-8-101. Chapter definitions.

(22) "Highway" means the entire width between the boundary lines of every way when any part thereto is open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel;

(51) "Roadway" means that portion of a highway improved, designed or ordinarily used for vehicular travel, exclusive of the berm or shoulder. In the event a highway includes two (2) or more separate roadways, "roadway" refers to any such roadway separately but not to all such roadways collectively;

(11) "Crosswalk" means:

(A) That part of a roadway at an intersection included within the connections of the lateral lines of the sidewalks on opposite sides of the highway measured from the curbs or, in the absence of curbs, from the edges of the traversable roadway; or

(B) Any portion of a roadway at an intersection or elsewhere distinctly indicated for pedestrian crossing by lines or other markings on the surface;

(24) "Intersection" means:

(A) The area embraced within the prolongation or connection of the lateral curb lines, or, if none, then the lateral boundary lines of the roadways of two (2) highways which join one another at, or approximately at, right angles, or the areas within which vehicles traveling upon different highways joining at any other angle may come in conflict; or

(B) Where a highway includes two (2) roadways thirty feet (30') or more apart, then every crossing of each roadway of such divided highway by an intersecting highway shall be regarded as a separate intersection. In the event such intersecting highway also includes two (2) roadways thirty feet (30') or more apart, then every crossing of two (2) roadways of such highways shall be regarded as a separate intersection;

(35) "Official traffic-control devices" means all signs, signals, markings and devices not inconsistent with this chapter and chapter 10, parts 1-5 of this title placed or erected by authority of a public body or official having jurisdiction for the purpose of regulating, warning or guiding traffic.

Well, it looks like you can't have an intersection or a crosswalk in a parking lot. Because in order to have those things, you first have to have a "highway", and a private parking lot cannot contain a "highway" because it is not open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel. The sign in the parking lot even says it is private property and can only be used to do business with them, etc. Or something to that effect.

[jasonsmith]

Oh, I forgot to mention this:

55-8-160. Stopping, standing or parking prohibited in specific places - Penalty - Exceptions for disabled veterans and handicapped persons.

(a) No person shall stop, stand or park a vehicle outside of the limits of an incorporated municipality, except when necessary to avoid conflict with other traffic or in compliance with law or the directions of a police officer or traffic-control device, in any of the following places:

(6) Within twenty feet (20') of a crosswalk at an intersection;

(7) Within thirty feet (30') upon the approach to any flashing beacon, stop sign or traffic-control signal located at the side of a roadway;

(e) A violation of this section is a Class C misdemeanor.

So, that would mean anyone parking within 30' of the stop sign in the parking lot is violating the law.

I'm guessing that would be a 30' radius, or just 30' up the side of the road for the stop sign?

It does look like that is a 20' radius for the crosswalk.

[jasonsmith]

Ok, someone pointed this statute out to me:

TN 55-8-102. Provisions refer to vehicles upon highways - Exceptions.

(a) The provisions of this chapter and chapter 10, parts 1-5 of this title, relating to the operation of vehicles, refer exclusively to the operation of vehicles upon highways, except where a different place is specifically referred to in a given section.

And here's the law:

TN 55-8-149. Requirements for stop signs - Vehicles and streetcars must stop at stop signs - Penalty.

(c) Every driver of a vehicle and every operator of a streetcar approaching a stop sign shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or in the event there is no crosswalk, shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, then at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver or operator has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway before entering the intersection, except when directed to proceed by a police officer or traffic control signal.

I'm guessing a provision of a chapter is the parts of a statute? Meaning statute 55-8-149 would be considered a provision of chapter 8, and would be included in the meaning of statute 55-8-102?

So, that would mean statute 55-8-149 would only apply to vehicles driven upon highways, and not vehicles driven on private parking lots? Is this correct?

[blewis]

Jason, you also need to check any local ordinances that may grant police the authority to enforce traffic laws in "public" parking lots. I've seen this in several places.
Barry

[jasonsmith]

Jason, you also need to check any local ordinances that may grant police the authority to enforce traffic laws in "public" parking lots. I've seen this in several places.
Barry

I already checked and didn't see anything. Though I did see this one:

Miscellaneous traffic control signs, etc.

It shall be unlawful for any pedestrian or the operator of any vehicle to violate or fail to comply with any traffic control sign, signal, marking, or device placed or erected by the state or the city unless otherwise directed by a police officer. No person shall willfully fail or refuse to comply with any lawful order of any police officer invested by law with the authority to direct, control or regulate traffic.

I don't know what law the cop is relying on. But I'm gonna find out who put the stop sign in. I really doubt the city put it in.

Any comments on my above post regarding TN 55-8-102?

[Happy Trails]

I already checked and didn't see anything. Though I did see this one:

Miscellaneous traffic control signs, etc.

It shall be unlawful for any pedestrian or the operator of any vehicle to violate or fail to comply with any traffic control sign, signal, marking, or device placed or erected by the state or the city unless otherwise directed by a police officer. No person shall willfully fail or refuse to comply with any lawful order of any police officer invested by law with the authority to direct, control or regulate traffic.

I don't know what law the cop is relying on. But I'm gonna find out who put the stop sign in. I really doubt the city put it in.

Any comments on my above post regarding TN 55-8-102?

On your ticket there should be a code.

Was it 55-8-102 or is it a local ordinance code?

[jasonsmith]

On your ticket there should be a code.

Was it 55-8-102 or is it a local ordinance code?

There was no code on there. There are several common offenses listed with check-mark boxes beside them. The officer checked off "Ran Stop Sign". So that's all I have to go on. I guess in court I'll tell the judge that I'm pleading not guilty because I don't know what statute the officer claims that I violated, and so that I'll need to make a discovery request to obtain that information.

Though, it seems to me that I have it in the bag according to TN 55-8-102 paragraph (a).

TN 55-8-102. Provisions refer to vehicles upon highways - Exceptions.

(a) The provisions of this chapter and chapter 10, parts 1-5 of this title, relating to the operation of vehicles, refer exclusively to the operation of vehicles upon highways, except where a different place is specifically referred to in a given section.

That is if the cop is relying on TN 55-8-149.

I could argue the stop sign shouldn't be posted there because there is not intersection as there are no highways intersecting. But I say the cop would say that there is a crosswalk there, so the stop signs are posted because of the crosswalk. Though, the yellow diagnol lines don't look like typical crosswalk lines. More like no-passing lines or firelane lines.

I guess I'll have to see what study was conducted for those stop signs.