What Can Happen if You Refuse to Cooperate at a Checkpoint

[surfer349]

My question involves civil rights in the State of: AZ

So I am interested in general discussion and theory about these interactions. Anyone up for some discussion? I've been through the BP checkpoints on the highways several times and always refuse to answer any questions.

My question here is what happens when the Officer requests/demands movement to secondary? I usually use the "Am I being detained or am I free to go?" line. Does a citizen have the right to refuse going to secondary? There is no probable cause for the Officer to send to secondary, only the fact that you are not submitting to their authority.

My other question is about the difference between a police and border patrol officer. I know that you must comply with demands by a Peace Officer (police), but BP are not classified as a Peace Officer. So if a BP agent asks me to step out of the car, is it mandatory?

Thoughts?

[free9man]

I can't comment on the first but the second is ludicrous. Border Patrol agents are FEDERAL law enforcement officers. So yes, if they ask you to get out it would be wise to get out.

[jk]

Offhand I don't know if they can demand the actions they issue but I did see a video on youtube where the driver simply said he did not wish to go to "secondary" and that he didn't have time to deal with their situation. He was let through.


http://www.infowars.com/video-man-re...l-checkpoints/

[surfer349]

free9man: just because they are federal doesn't mean you have to grab your ankles. Most places have laws like "failure to obey lawful command of a peace officer." My question is if BP agents are classified as Peace Officers.

jk: that's a great video. So I guess does the 4th amendment allow us to refuse to go to secondary?

[free9man]

Most likely they have been extended state peace officer status through a MOU to enforce state law at checkpoints. Depending on the purpose of the checkpoint, they may not need it. If they are acting in their capacity to enforce/investigate federal laws, you would need to comply. To determine if they are acting under a MOU, you would need to contact local/state law enforcement.

[jk]

for them to force compliance or penalize you for a failure to comply, the orders would have to be valid under an administrative exemption to the application of the various Constitutional rights being violated. Personally I have a real problem with any such exception as it leads down a slippery slope to removing all rights via "administrative decree".

Offhand I do not know what or if there is such a valid exemption. I know that at the national boundaries there is. The TSA operates under such an exemption as well. DUI checkpoints do as well.

[cmre3456]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVx0NpYbtus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=k1XGTs1HHkE

[surfer349]

I've seen those videos too, but they don't answer the questions.

1) must you obey BP agent's commands?
2) are you required to go to secondary absent probable cause? Refusing to comply/answer questions is not probable cause (5th amendment)

[free9man]

I've seen those videos too, but they don't answer the questions.

1) must you obey BP agent's commands?

If the agent is operating under authority granted by local/state law enforcement....yes. How do you know if they are? You ask, preferably ahead of time if the checkpoints tend to be in the same area. If it is an immigration checkpoint, which is a matter of Federal law, you would do well to obey them as it is in their normal jurisdiction.

[aardvarc]

I've seen those videos too, but they don't answer the questions.

1) must you obey BP agent's commands?
2) are you required to go to secondary absent probable cause? Refusing to comply/answer questions is not probable cause (5th amendment)

From a practical level, yes, to both questions. The problem is that you are thinking that the answers to probable cause are either yours to make, or, are made at the time that the officer gives you the command. Neither of those is true. You comply at the time or risk arrest (the easy way, or the hard way). Questions of probable cause and whether or not the command was lawful are answered AFTER the fact, in the courts. Law enforcement has things like guns, tasers, and dogs - not to mention that they operate under color of law - such that they ARE going to win any roadside or checkpoint encounter - up to an including arrest, physical control, or even up to deadly force if they feel they have to. You can be "right" all day long, and it won't matter. The bigger your kahonies are, the better for the police dog to grab them - thus the more confrontational and less compliant someone is at the time, the more the situation escalates. But the result will ultimately be the same. Your goal, if you feel that you are right, is to get through the situation as unscathed as possible so that you can appear in court against "the man" and bring your question of propriety to the court.