Driving with No Headlights On, CVC 24250

[ahhuang]

My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California

I was driving east bound on a local street that had no street lights at 8pm in early April 2012. My wife (pregnant at the time), had turned on the cabin lights while eating a snack to fulfill her cravings. I noticed a police patrol car parked inside the parking lot on the south side of the road. Immediately passing by the parking lot, the police turned on his sirens and pulled us over. We pulled over behind a parked truck/trailer.

I asked the officer if there was any problem, and had thought he was going to give us a ticket for having the cabin lights on and so I politely explained that my pregnant wife just wanted to eat some snacks. He stated that he pulled us over because my car's headlights was not on. We (my wife and I) immediately looked and sure enough, our headlights WERE and shining straight ahead on the trailer in front of us. The officer then told us that we just turned on the headlights...

The issue is... we never turned the headlight switch on/off. In fact, we have the headlight knob on the ON switch all the time. Since our insurance agent told us that AllState offers lower rates to drivers that have their headlights on during the daytime as well as nighttime, we haven't turned off the lights... EVER! We both complained to the officer because there was no way our headlights were not on. He then stated he had us on camera and that we can file a subpoena for it.

The officer asked for our registration and insurance and at the moment, I could not find our insurance papers. (We had just washed/cleaned our car earlier in the day). After the officer came back and asked for me to sign the paper, I checked once more, and found our proof of insurance. The officer then said that he cannot change the ticket and asked me to sign the ticket, and that he would make a note that I did have my insurance papers. He then told me to go to court and show them the paper and my insurance portion of the ticket would be reduced down to $10, but I would still have to pay the administrative fee....

If we are indeed guilty, I'll gladly pay 100 times the amount they are asking for. That is how certain I am that we are innocent!
How do we fight this case? How do we obtain a subpoena for this video proof the officer is stating? Is the way the officer presented the insurance part of the ticket legitimate? I don't understand why he can't just write up another ticket without the insurance portion.

Facts: The road was pitch dark. If our headlights was not on, I would not be able to drive, and I also would not have seen the patrol car before he turned on his lights. There were no street lights on this road.

My wife was so upset from this ticket because of the financial burden it placed on us (I recently lost my job and with a baby on the way and now a unwarranted ticket) she cried a lot that night and we ended having to go to the Emergency Room to get her checked out. Turned out she had stomach ulcers which we both believe was sparked from this police incident. I want to file a compliant against this officer for the amount of emotional/financial distress he has caused us. How do I go about with this?

Thank you in advance.

[That Guy]

My wife was so upset from this ticket because of the financial burden it placed on us (I recently lost my job and with a baby on the way and now a unwarranted ticket) she cried a lot that night and we ended having to go to the Emergency Room to get her checked out. Turned out she had stomach ulcers which we both believe was sparked from this police incident. I want to file a compliant against this officer for the amount of emotional/financial distress he has caused us. How do I go about with this?

You can go to the police station where the officer works out of, request a complaint form, complete it and submit it to turn it in the the same agency.

Just keep in mind 2 things:

1) Your claim makes ZERO medical sense, meaning it is likely that your wife's stomach ulcer preexisted the issuing of this citation and they were aggravated by her feeling stressed out under the circumstances; you sound like a lying fool by claiming that this one incident caused your wife stomach ulcers. And,

2) Filing a complaint against the officer will have ZERO impact on the citation that was issued to you!

I asked the officer if there was any problem, and had thought he was going to give us a ticket for having the cabin lights on and so I politely explained that my pregnant wife just wanted to eat some snacks. He stated that he pulled us over because my car's headlights was not on. We (my wife and I) immediately looked and sure enough, our headlights WERE and shining straight ahead on the trailer in front of us. The officer then told us that we just turned on the headlights...

The issue is... we never turned the headlight switch on/off. In fact, we have the headlight knob on the ON switch all the time. Since our insurance agent told us that AllState offers lower rates to drivers that have their headlights on during the daytime as well as nighttime, we haven't turned off the lights... EVER! We both complained to the officer because there was no way our headlights were not on. He then stated he had us on camera and that we can file a subpoena for it.

The officer asked for our registration and insurance and at the moment, I could not find our insurance papers. (We had just washed/cleaned our car earlier in the day). After the officer came back and asked for me to sign the paper, I checked once more, and found our proof of insurance. The officer then said that he cannot change the ticket and asked me to sign the ticket, and that he would make a note that I did have my insurance papers. He then told me to go to court and show them the paper and my insurance portion of the ticket would be reduced down to $10, but I would still have to pay the administrative fee....

If we are indeed guilty, I'll gladly pay 100 times the amount they are asking for. That is how certain I am that we are innocent!
How do we fight this case? How do we obtain a subpoena for this video proof the officer is stating? Is the way the officer presented the insurance part of the ticket legitimate? I don't understand why he can't just write up another ticket without the insurance portion.

The officer is correct in that once the citation is written, he simply cannot change it, scratch something off of it, ... etc. However, you can show proof you were insured at the time of the stop to the court clerk and the failure to provide proof of insurance upon request by a peace officer violation will be dismissed upon payment of a $25 administrative fee to the court.

As for the citation for not using headlight, the chances that the court will believe that the officer chased you down and pulled you over and cited you for not having your headlights on if in fact you did have them on, is closer to none than it it is to slim.

Facts: The road was pitch dark. If our headlights was not on, I would not be able to drive, and I also would not have seen the patrol car before he turned on his lights. There were no street lights on this road.

FACT: The moon was likely shining brightly on any night in "early April" and it should not have been "pitch dark" anywhere.

Good luck with the citation!

[ahhuang]

Will be filing trial by declaration and I wanted to know how to obtain a subpoena for this video proof the officer is stating? (We already have a good idea of how to go about with the process but wanted to see if there were other methods) We already went to the police station where the officer works at and they refused to give a copy of the video or allow us to view it. I've seen on public forums that the dash video is public record and typically the agency will just charge administrative fee to produce an extra copy to the requester.

If I have to pay exuberant fees that ultimately will cost me more than just paying the ticket, I will do just that. If I was at fault, I have no problem paying a citation. But justice needs to be served. From help via Private Messages from this forum and other websites and forums that had members more supportive and helpful than "That Guy" (ex-cop who has no life... posting at 2:15am), we plan on sending out cover letters / subpoena requests in the discovery phase via certified mail to the courthouse, police officer/agency, and local news regarding the citation at hand.

I don't need to hear from people who just want to judge and troll others. I'm just looking for assistance on bring justice to a wronged civilian.

For those that did inquire, our son was born healthy June 22nd and mom is doing fine. Thanks for asking.

[PTPD22]

From help via Private Messages from this forum and other websites and forums that had members more supportive and helpful than "That Guy" (ex-cop who has no life... posting at 2:15am), we plan on sending out cover letters / subpoena requests in the discovery phase via certified mail to the courthouse, police officer/agency, and local news regarding the citation at hand.

So, basically what you are saying is that you only value input and advice that conforms to your already preconceived wishes/beliefs. Ok...then, good luck to ya (especially the part about where you are expecting media attention over your dispute of a headlight citation...LOL!).

[cdwjava]

If you intend to seek the video and other documents via discovery, be CERTAIN that they are properly formatted and presented. Sending out a "cover letter" or a mailed request does not make it a request for discovery. If you do not receive the specific documents or video you requested through a properly formatted and delivered request for discovery, you can ask the court to compel discovery. If video does exist, and if it shows that you had your lights on the whole time, then it is likely the case will be dismissed before court.

And if you believe that you somehow have a claim against the police department for damages caused by the officer making the traffic stop, you will have a heck of a time trying to prove that. It might cost you upwards of $10,000 just to roll those dice, and the case would be quite difficult to prove. I doubt an attorney would even take it. But, if you have the money to throw away, maybe ...

Also, I do not believe that "That Guy" is an "ex-cop" with no life or otherwise. As a note, I am a CURRENT cop and I will often post at 2:15 AM or thereabouts. Not because I have "no life" but because that's the hours we cops keep - even off duty. And, as a note, That Guy is probably one of the two most knowledgeable guys on these forums when it comes to traffic issues. You may not appreciate his bluntness, but handholding does not do you or any other poster any favors as it tends to lead to false expectations.

You may be certain that the lights were on because you "always" do something, but I truly wonder if that's the case. If you kept your lights in the on position at all times, you would likely find a dead battery some morning. So, could it be the case that you regularly turn the headlights on rather than ALWAYS leave them on? If so, then it might just be possible that the officer did see you without headlights.

Oh, and it is generally not safe to drive with the dome light on. A "map light" is a little better, but having a brighter dome light in the interior of the vehicle tends to inhibit safe driving by restricting vision into the darkness surrounding the vehicle through the increased reflection from the inside.

[ahhuang]

If you intend to seek the video and other documents via discovery, be CERTAIN that they are properly formatted and presented. Sending out a "cover letter" or a mailed request does not make it a request for discovery. If you do not receive the specific documents or video you requested through a properly formatted and delivered request for discovery, you can ask the court to compel discovery. If video does exist, and if it shows that you had your lights on the whole time, then it is likely the case will be dismissed before court.

And if you believe that you somehow have a claim against the police department for damages caused by the officer making the traffic stop, you will have a heck of a time trying to prove that. It might cost you upwards of $10,000 just to roll those dice, and the case would be quite difficult to prove. I doubt an attorney would even take it. But, if you have the money to throw away, maybe ...

Also, I do not believe that "That Guy" is an "ex-cop" with no life or otherwise. As a note, I am a CURRENT cop and I will often post at 2:15 AM or thereabouts. Not because I have "no life" but because that's the hours we cops keep - even off duty. And, as a note, That Guy is probably one of the two most knowledgeable guys on these forums when it comes to traffic issues. You may not appreciate his bluntness, but handholding does not do you or any other poster any favors as it tends to lead to false expectations.

You may be certain that the lights were on because you "always" do something, but I truly wonder if that's the case. If you kept your lights in the on position at all times, you would likely find a dead battery some morning. So, could it be the case that you regularly turn the headlights on rather than ALWAYS leave them on? If so, then it might just be possible that the officer did see you without headlights.

Oh, and it is generally not safe to drive with the dome light on. A "map light" is a little better, but having a brighter dome light in the interior of the vehicle tends to inhibit safe driving by restricting vision into the darkness surrounding the vehicle through the increased reflection from the inside.

Thank you for the information cdwjava. What format should I be looking at for the video to present to court? I'm using documents from ticket assassin for the cover letter and formal request for video. What is the proper way to compel discovery?

I drive a 2007 Toyota Camry LE that auto turns off the headlights once I double press the wireless lock key. And yes you're right about the dead batteries. I've gone through 5 car batteries and more than countless times of having my car jumped which was probably caused by the car lights.


Thank you in advance.

[cdwjava]

That Guy and others can address the specific language and format of a proper discovery request better than I might. But, a lot of those do it yourself websites have proper formatting, it is just some of the other information you have to sometimes be wary of.

Typically, to compel discovery in a traffic matter you will have to bring it up to the court at the time of trial (or before if you can get in to see the judge) and inform the court that the agency or DA did not comply. Before the court will generally issue sanctions against the state they will give the state time to comply. That will also entail a continuance in your case and could put things off for another couple of months, but that's a decision you will have to make.

As for the potential civil claim, understand that the claim for damages is pretty much out. Even if the officer was incorrect, that does not automatically follow that there was an intentional act of misconduct, and it is not a foreseeable consequence of a traffic stop that someone will stress out and have a medical episode of some kind. So, I would encourage you to stick to the issue of the lights and do not jumble any court proceedings with ancillary and irrelevant claims. But, as I mentioned, if you have a lot of money sitting around for a roll of the dice, then it's your call.

[That Guy]

From help via Private Messages from this forum and other websites and forums that had members more supportive and helpful than "That Guy" (ex-cop who has no life... posting at 2:15am)

So then WHY are you back here asking more questions?

I don't need to hear from people who just want to judge and troll others. I'm just looking for assistance on bring justice to a wronged civilian.

Oh get over yourself! Your self righteous act will get you nowhere. Not here and most certainly not in court! And if anyone is trolling here, it has to be you with your ridiculous "my wife got a stomach ulcer because of this incident"... And "Allstate gives discount to drivers who use their headlights during the day"!!!

I do however, see that your confidence level has gone down. You went from:

I'll gladly pay 100 times the amount they are asking for.

To this:

If I have to pay exuberant fees that ultimately will cost me more than just paying the ticket, I will do just that.

So who knows, maybe you're finally realizing how ridiculous your claims are...

For those that did inquire, our son was born healthy June 22nd and mom is doing fine. Thanks for asking.

Yeah, congrats to you and the Mom; can't help it but feel sorry for the kid though!


EDITED TO ADD:
It appears that I forgot to post a link showing different phases (and illumination)of the moon... Here is it just in case: Moonrise and moonset in California (NOTE: Average orbital distance is 384,400 all shown values are below (i.e. closer than average) PLUS April 6th was a full moon - all other "early April" dates are at 75% and ^up^ illimination = NOT "pitch dark" by any measure)

[CourtClerk]

That Guy and others can address the specific language and format of a proper discovery request better than I might.

I doubt seriously that TG would want to help this clown in any way, shape or form. One doesn't insult someone and then expect someone who knows what they're talking about to help them with anything.

She's upset, crying and in the hospital over a TRAFFIC TICKET??? Good luck to her when it comes to parenting a child. Commit her now, she can't take it.

And perhaps no one asked you, OP regarding whether or not your wife and child were doing alright because this isn't a parenting forum and no one really cares.

[cdwjava]

I doubt seriously that TG would want to help this clown in any way, shape or form. One doesn't insult someone and then expect someone who knows what they're talking about to help them with anything.

After TG's most recent post, I think that's clear.

Of course I never stated he would, only that he and others could address the discovery issue better than I could. I send people to court and testify, I don't defend them.