VC 22350 Speeding Ticket in California

[ticket_question]

My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California

I got a 22350 for supposedly doing 50 in a 35 zone on CA 84. The ticket lists the officers estimate as 50 and a radar hit of 50.

I requested and received the traffic survey for the stretch of highway. The survey is dated 5/05 which is fairly old, though not quite old enough I am hoping some of the veterans here could provide me with some insight on what the survey is telling me. The section of interest is part C.

I looked over the survey and the following details caught my eye. I am not sure if the mean anything or can help me.

1) It seems to indicate the speed for the area is 25, yet according to the officer it is 35.
2) It seems the average driver speed according to the survey is closer to 31 not 25.
3) The accident rate for 02 and 03 is well below the average.
4) There doesn't appear to be any special conditions on the road.

Taking a look at the area from Google Street View it seems the PSL is 25 for the area listed on the ticket. A little further down the road it becomes 35. Not sure if that means anything but I figured it might be worth mentioning.

Is it worth attempting to fight this using a TBD? Does one lose the chance to do traffic school if they do a TBD?

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

[STATcom]

It might be a better idea to focus your energies on contesting the legitimacy of the citing officers speed estimate for you. While traffic surveys can give an indication of the usual speed on a stretch of road, for your purposes it likely won't help very much, other than to establish the actual speed limit on the road. Even if you prove that he put down wrong speed limit, that still doesn't change the radar reading stated on your ticket. Good luck.

[ticket_question]

It might be a better idea to focus your energies on contesting the legitimacy of the citing officers speed estimate for you. While traffic surveys can give an indication of the usual speed on a stretch of road, for your purposes it likely won't help very much, other than to establish the actual speed limit on the road. Even if you prove that he put down wrong speed limit, that still doesn't change the radar reading stated on your ticket. Good luck.

Thanks for the quick reply. I am curious though, I though trying to fight the legitimacy of the officers estimate is usually a futile effort as they are considered trusted sources. At the very least it would seem like it would turn into a he-said, she-said game.

[That Guy]

My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California

I got a 22350 for supposedly doing 50 in a 35 zone on CA 84. The ticket lists the officers estimate as 50 and a radar hit of 50.

I requested and received the traffic survey for the stretch of highway. The survey is dated 5/05 which is fairly old, though not quite old enough I am hoping some of the veterans here could provide me with some insight on what the survey is telling me. The section of interest is part C.

I looked over the survey and the following details caught my eye. I am not sure if the mean anything or can help me.

1) It seems to indicate the speed for the area is 25, yet according to the officer it is 35.
2) It seems the average driver speed according to the survey is closer to 31 not 25.
3) The accident rate for 02 and 03 is well below the average.
4) There doesn't appear to be any special conditions on the road.

Taking a look at the area from Google Street View it seems the PSL is 25 for the area listed on the ticket. A little further down the road it becomes 35. Not sure if that means anything but I figured it might be worth mentioning.

Is it worth attempting to fight this using a TBD? Does one lose the chance to do traffic school if they do a TBD?

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

You need to post the survey in its entirety so we can look at the full document.

- - - Updated - - -

It might be a better idea to focus your energies on contesting the legitimacy of the citing officers speed estimate for you. While traffic surveys can give an indication of the usual speed on a stretch of road, for your purposes it likely won't help very much, other than to establish the actual speed limit on the road. Even if you prove that he put down wrong speed limit, that still doesn't change the radar reading stated on your ticket. Good luck.

Sorry, but you're wrong on all accounts!

Assuming the officer used Radar (as indicated in the 2nd line of the original post) he E&T survey is where this case begins and where it ends. the E& T survey and whether it justifies the speed limit is the basis for California's speed trap laws. lastly, contesting the legitimacy of the citing officer's speed estimate willl not ever get you anywhere. Again, the presumption here is that Radar was used!

[ticket_question]

You need to post the survey in its entirety so we can look at the full document.

- - - Updated - - -



Sorry, but you're wrong on all accounts!

Assuming the officer used Radar (as indicated in the 2nd line of the original post) he E&T survey is where this case begins and where it ends. the E& T survey and whether it justifies the speed limit is the basis for California's speed trap laws. lastly, contesting the legitimacy of the citing officer's speed estimate willl not ever get you anywhere. Again, the presumption here is that Radar was used!

Thanks for clarification.

I did post a link to the traffic survey (the words traffic survey in my fist post) though it is not as obvious as it should be
http://www.sendspace.com/file/s7fhto

As for the radar issue, the ticket has the radar box filled in and the officer told me he used radar. I didn't inquire further about the radar at the time.

Please let me know if any further information is needed. Thanks again for all the help!

- - - Updated - - -

Bump......

[That Guy]

Thanks for clarification.

I did post a link to the traffic survey (the words traffic survey in my fist post) though it is not as obvious as it should be
http://www.sendspace.com/file/s7fhto

As for the radar issue, the ticket has the radar box filled in and the officer told me he used radar. I didn't inquire further about the radar at the time.

Please let me know if any further information is needed. Thanks again for all the help!

OK, there are certainly several errors and inaccuracies in several areas here that would lead to a conclusion that the survey does not justify the 25mph speed limit. We will be referring to Chapter 2B of the 2003 CA-MUTCD at this point. Mainly starting with section 2B.116 on page 2B-48.

With that being said, here is where we start:

The survey was conducted on May 13, 2005 and as such, it must comply with the rules and regulations provided under the 2003 CA-MUTCD.

You should download the entire document or at minimum, Chapter 2B: Regulatory Signs.

At this point in time, I need to know whether you were cited before or after May 12, 2012.

If you were cited ON or BEFORE May 12, 2012, then the survey was under 7 years old and as such did not need any additional reviews and certifications by a traffic engineer.

If you were cited AFTER May 12, 2012, then the survey was OVER 7 years old and for it to continue to be valid for up to 10 years from the date it was first issued, it would have to comply with VC 40802(c)(2)(B)(i)(II) which states:

VC 40802(c)(2)(B)(i)(II) If an engineering and traffic survey was conducted more than seven years prior to the date of the alleged violation, and a registered engineer evaluates the section of the highway and determines that no significant changes in roadway or traffic conditions have occurred, including, but not limited to, changes in adjoining property or land use, roadway width, or traffic volume, 10 years.

[ticket_question]

OK, there are certainly several errors and inaccuracies in several areas here that would lead to a conclusion that the survey does not justify the 25mph speed limit. We will be referring to Chapter 2B of the 2003 CA-MUTCD at this point. Mainly starting with section 2B.116 on page 2B-48.

With that being said, here is where we start:

The survey was conducted on May 13, 2005 and as such, it must comply with the rules and regulations provided under the 2003 CA-MUTCD.

You should download the entire document or at minimum, Chapter 2B: Regulatory Signs.

At this point in time, I need to know whether you were cited before or after May 12, 2012.

If you were cited ON or BEFORE May 12, 2012, then the survey was under 7 years old and as such did not need any additional reviews and certifications by a traffic engineer.

If you were cited AFTER May 12, 2012, then the survey was OVER 7 years old and for it to continue to be valid for up to 10 years from the date it was first issued, it would have to comply with VC 40802(c)(2)(B)(i)(II) which states:

VC 40802(c)(2)(B)(i)(II) If an engineering and traffic survey was conducted more than seven years prior to the date of the alleged violation, and a registered engineer evaluates the section of the highway and determines that no significant changes in roadway or traffic conditions have occurred, including, but not limited to, changes in adjoining property or land use, roadway width, or traffic volume, 10 years.

I was sited after May 12th 2012.

If I understand you correctly, they would have needed to do a follow up after the seven year mark in order to have the current survey stay valid for the 10 years. If a follow up was done would CA DOT have sent that to me with my initial request? Should I make a follow up request to them? As always, thanks for all the help!

[That Guy]

I was sited after May 12th 2012.

If I understand you correctly, they would have needed to do a follow up after the seven year mark in order to have the current survey stay valid for the 10 years. If a follow up was done would CA DOT have sent that to me with my initial request? Should I make a follow up request to them? As always, thanks for all the help!

Typically, they would actually do a follow up prior to the expiration date -like at 6 1/2 years or so- the engineers would pull the survey as well as any work orders associated with that stretch of highway over the same period, drive by the area and review all conditions which existed at the time, they may even review accident rates to see which direction those went over the period of time. They could however conceivably do so at 7 1/2 years which would bring into question citations issued in the interim... hmmm something to think about!

I don't have a CA-DOT (Caltrans) review sheet handy but this -issued by Los Angeles City DOT (LADOT) and since they would be following Caltrans' guidelines, should give a good idea of the items on the list:



Some agencies will simply stamp the first page of the survey with a "reviewed by___ and approved for a 10 year update" or words to that effect.

But yes, and since it is possible that they sent you an un-updated survey (showing a possible correction of the posted limit from 25 to 35 in section C), it is also possible that they did not include the one/two page review by the engineer. Chances are, the officer might have both items -i.e. the corrected survey and a 10-year update. Then again, if history is any indication, the officer might walk in with one page document and call it a survey.

[ticket_question]

Sounds like I need to contact CA DOT again and ask if there is any update to what they sent me. In my follow up request should I mention the fact that survey is outdated or just simple ask for any reviews of the survey?

If no update has been conducted does that invalidate the ticket since it would be a speed trap? Is there any limitation on how long before the 10 years are up for them to conduct the review? If CA DOT says no review has been conducted or refuse to send it to me there is nothing else I can do until the trial by way of a discovery motion (that is after I go though the TBD process)?

Assuming I can get nothing else out of CA DOT I would be able to state based on the information that I have, I the current speed limit is based on an outdated survey and as such is classified as a speed trap based on VC 40802(c)(2)(B)(i)(II). Thanks again!

[California student]

It might be a better idea to focus your energies on contesting the legitimacy of the citing officers speed estimate for you. While traffic surveys can give an indication of the usual speed on a stretch of road, for your purposes it likely won't help very much, other than to establish the actual speed limit on the road. Even if you prove that he put down wrong speed limit, that still doesn't change the radar reading stated on your ticket. Good luck.

Do you want to know how I know that you don't have a clue about the California Vehicle Code? We can begin with the fact that a valid ETS is a required element of the State's case against the OP in order the refute the presumption of a speed trap.