Trespassing on School Grounds After Closing

[aardvarc]

Let me put it to you this way: Florida's statutory language is almost identical to CA's on trespass issues (which this is - it has NOTHING to do with the dog, as far as law enforcement is concerned) - and EVERY law enforcement agency I've worked for since 1984, including the state level agency I'm with now, makes arrests every day for trespass after warning - including on public school grounds. The bottom line is that police, authorized to do so, told him NOT to be there. Whether he's there with the dog or not, his showing up on school grounds, outside of public invitation events, could get him arrested.

Fort Knox is publicly owned property too, but public ownership does NOT equate to fully open and accessible to the public.

[eapls2708]

I didn't mean to tie the dog to the trespass issue. The dog is a different matter. Also, I am not challenging that law enforcement would have the authority to eject trespassers. Ft. Knox is held not for public use, but in a proprietary capacity. I am quite aware of the difference. There is case law that governmental properties held for public use and those held for proprietary reasons are treated differently under various land laws, including one's ability to assert prescriptive rights over such property, access, and trespass. Equating a federal military installation to local public school grounds is a bit like equating a cruise ship to a canoe. Yes, their both watercraft, but a completely different set of laws apply to operating each. Any such comparison and consideration of laws governing access to Ft. Knox is not germane to the subject of the thread.

With parks, schools, and other governmental properties otherwise open to the public, there are generally a set of statutes that govern among other things, land issues. Sometimes public access restrictions are in the statutes, most often they are further controlled by local ordinance.

Law enforcement has no authority to enforce a law or code which does not exist. I see how 16-7-21 would apply to (state or local, but not federal) governmental land held for proprietary purpose, but I still do not see how it applies to land held for public purpose and generally open to public access.

I would not, and did not suggest that the OP simply ignore the warning and walk his dog at the school as he pleases. I suggested that he ask a local authority to inform him of the specific state or local code that prohibits him from being on school grounds so that he understands the specific restrictions. Cops on the street are not infallible. Sometimes they get the law wrong and sometimes they are not fully aware of the law. Specifically on trespass, surveyors often have to point out to patrol officers and sometimes even to watch commanders the Penal Code section that allows surveyors to cross and access properties as necessary to conduct their field surveys.

[jk]

With parks, schools, and other governmental properties otherwise open to the public, there are generally a set of statutes that govern among other things, land issues. Sometimes public access restrictions are in the statutes, most often they are further controlled by local ordinance.

I know of no school that is "open to the public" in any way more so than the town hall or a state college. It is for proprietary purposes; school, and the school administration does have a right to control the grounds in any situation I have known.

While you may be aware of schools that allow their grounds to be used seemingly as the public desires, I suspect they do have the power to control the grounds, including the exclusion of anybody without specific business involving the school, any time they wish to impose such rules.

Given that, is it possible the school admin has given standing orders that they do not authorize rambling about the school grounds and the cop is merely enforcing that?

[aardvarc]

Schools are treated differently. They are NOT open nor intended for the general public, even during their normal business hours. Have you seen the security in place at most schools these days? There are LOTS of reasons for that, and access to school grounds is vehemently enforced. School are open to students of the school and those with legitimate purpose on the grounds for school business and services.

Other public lands, such as parks, can be and are similarly regulated. Being public land, and even intended for GENERAL public use, (which a school ISN'T) still doesn't mean that the property cannot be regulated and enforced.

Note that this thread is about trespass after closing, but the reality is that without legit SCHOOL RELATED purpose, it's trespassing even during school hours. Student security takes priority over all else, even the tantrums of tax payers who think that their contribution entitles them to free reign. That means if you don't attend the school, have a child at the school, or are attending a function at the school, you shouldn't be there, regardless of the time of day, and can expect to be treated as such, up to and including law enforcement bringing a criminal trespass case, especially if warning has already been given.

[leeshis0019]

I got a hold of a the district administrator rather quickly through an email I sent to someone else. In the email I mentioned that I understood it was probably a nuisance to ask when they have other issues, but they specifically responded to that saying that it's quite the opposite given the time of year. However, if I had emailed in a week or so they wouldn't have gotten back to me at all as they are preparing for the next school year to start.

I was given permission to walk and had to email various school officers (they handle the actual security of the schools in this district). I had no clue that I actually knew one of the officers...

Anyways, the told me that I'll need to wait a week or so in order for them to handle everything and that I just need to carry identification when I go walking there. They never mentioned anything about the dog or the dog's waste, but they are being more stringent on who goes in and out because there are people apparently causing damage to one of the parking lots and the football field...both places I never went anyways.


Thanks for the advice...specifically jk I believe on talking to administration. Was reading some of the responses and couldn't help but chuckle. This is Georgia...many miles from the closest skyscraper and I live in a relatively crime-free zone. Imagine a horse ranch with huge boundaries. Now imagine that horse ranch is multiplied by 4, all of the trees cut down and burned, hills landscaped on top of natural hills and a school placed into it all. For whatever reason, they build the public buildings like that here and it's literally the only place with a sidewalk around here. My neighborhood doesn't have a sidewalk and the neighborhood behind me (50 years old) doesn't have a sidewalk. This school has sidewalks going off into strange places for crying out loud...figured they wanted someone to use them.

And as for the dog waste. Please get over yourself for christ's sake. Disinfect the area my dog pooped after I pick it up? Really? And you're worried about urine damaging the grass?...and don't try to explain to me how to use some "green" disinfectant because even vinegar damages grass. And as I believe I said in either the original post or my second post...I don't bring him there to use the bathroom.

As for the drive the 17 miles to the nearest dog-park remark...yes I suppose I can completely waste that gas and that time in order to put my dog into a car that he is anxious to get into all while it's 100-110 degrees outside.


The point of this post had nothing to do with my dogs waste. Reading other pastes by people that remarked on it I'm surprised they were confident in being as derisive as they were here when you choose to subtly insult people for not focusing on the real issue.

[eapls2708]

Gee aardvark, you seem to be wound a bit tight. I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from.

Anyway, I didn't say that access could not be regulated. I said that I couldn't see the connection between a law written to address trespass on private lands to the lands of a public school. I also said that access and use is commonly controlled according to local ordinance.

As far as the security in schools you refer to, I've heard of it in larger cities where crime had become or is a problem in particular schools, but I've not seen it in the schools around where I now live, or in any of the other communities I've lived in, which includes communities in several states. I just haven't experienced or seen it. I feel bad for you that such security and restriction of school grounds is necessary where you live. Such prevalence of crime must wear on the nerves.

Even in Sacramento, a fairly large city where I work and near where I live, the fields and playgrounds of public schools are not restricted from public use as long as there is no school function or recreational league sport scheduled to use them.

The OP seems like a reasonable person looking for reasonable opportunities to walk his dog in a safe location. He said he cleans up after the critter and he took the advised step of contacting someone in authority to find out what the restrictions actually are and to get specific permission. A perfect outcome.

There was no need for you to take offense at his questions, and no cause for your apparent hostility toward him or toward me. Take the occasion of the weekend to relax and unwind. Hopefully you will be a bit more mellow by Monday. As for me, I'll be at one of the local high schools for my daughter's swim meet, probably stop by the local elementary school to play basketball with my kids and let them crawl over the play structure while my wife and I relax at a pipcnic table, and we may even take our dog and let him run around and play with one of the other dogs some nearby resident is likely to bring.

[jk]

And you're worried about urine damaging the grass?..

well, you have one dog. Next thing you know this becomes a de facto dog park and yes, urine on the grass does a lot of damage. Don't ya just love looking at a nice lush yard with all of these yellow spots where it is obvious the dog walkers allowed their pooches to pee? I know I don't and it is difficult to repair those spots.

I was given permission to walk and had to email various school officers (they handle the actual security of the schools in this district).

see how easy it is? In certain aspects of life, it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. When there is a possibility of getting arrested, it ain't one of 'em.

Anyways, the told me that I'll need to wait a week or so in order for them to handle everything and that I just need to carry identification when I go walking there. They never mentioned anything about the dog or the dog's waste, but they are being more stringent on who goes in and out because there are people apparently causing damage to one of the parking lots and the football field...both places I never went anyways.

I bet whomever is damaging the lot and fields will say the exact same thing. Not accusing you but obviously the easiest way to prevent damage is to control the situation.

And as I believe I said in either the original post or my second post...I don't bring him there to use the bathroom.

but I bet if the urge strikes, that is what happens.

- - - Updated - - -

As far as the security in schools you refer to, I've heard of it in larger cities where crime had become or is a problem in particular schools, but I've not seen it in the schools around where I now live, or in any of the other communities I've lived in, which includes communities in several states. I just haven't experienced or seen it. I feel bad for you that such security and restriction of school grounds is necessary where you live. Such prevalence of crime must wear on the nerves.

Even in Sacramento, a fairly large city where I work and near where I live, the fields and playgrounds of public schools are not restricted from public use as long as there is no school function or recreational league sport scheduled to use them.
.

I come from a small town. We do a lot of farming around here so there are large expanses of land with no people on it. School system in my immediate are has less than 1000 total enrollment.

Immediately across the state line from one of the top most populated cities in Indiana. There are at least 20 school systems within a 40 mile radius and I don't know one where you are allowed to be on school grounds without specific permission.

[Dogmatique]

Oh, I doubt it's the presence of crime that wears on the nerves of us regular folk.