Neighbor's Treehouse on Our Property

[kacsecat]

My question involves real estate located in the State of: California
Using solely the tax assessors dimensional plot plans of our property and that of every surrounding neighbor it appears with a high degree of certainty that the owner of the adjacent property constructed an eloborate treehouse (complete with door & windows) on our property sometime since 1998 when they prurchased their property. We purchased our, adjacent property, in Jan 2011. This is a resort community and the owner of the adjacent property has never been seen at the property and in fact we have only seen any persons (likely their adult children) at the property twice in 18 months. The fully enclosed treehouse is locked but has certainly not been used in at least 3-5 years, if not much longer. In my assessment the treehouse appears completely abondoned. Via comments from the selling agent of our home and our agent's limited interaction with the neighbor we have reason to believe that the adjacent owner believes the treehouse to be mostly if not completely on their property. Obviously a survey would be the most definative means to determine the property line but at this time we don't have the $800-1000 quoted for the survey to deal soely with a treehouse. I am concerned however with the creation of an easment if we do not address the issue now and I am envisioning this becoming a battle if I take steps to raise the property line issue with the absentee neighbor. Since the treehouse is abandoned and on my property is there issues with me simply taking over use of the structure and putting my own lock on the unit thereby discontinuing any possible use of the structure? I suspect that given the near abandonment of the property in general and the treehouse in particular that such a move would not even be noticed. In the future I would hope to have the property surveyed and at that time I would wish to dismantle the treehouse. What would would be the best course of action short of a survey and confrontation at this time to avaoid the issue of creating an easment (if that is indeed a possibility)?

[Mr. Knowitall]

If you aren't certain as to the property line, you have no way of being certin that "the treehouse is abandoned and on [your] property".

[jk]

and locking the neighbors treehouse , which absent a survey proving otherwise, will be considered to be their property, is pretty good evidence of your trespassing.

I also doesn't matter if it is abandoned or not. There mere existence of it, if it is on your property, is the encroachment.

[LandSurveyor]

Using solely the tax assessors dimensional plot plans of our property and that of every surrounding neighbor it appears with a high degree of certainty that the owner of the adjacent property constructed an eloborate treehouse (complete with door & windows) on our property sometime since 1998 when they prurchased their property

.
You are kidding, right? Where did you get the "plot", from the county GIS?

Obviously a survey would be the most definative means to determine the property line but at this time we don't have the $800-1000 quoted for the survey to deal soely with a treehouse.

If you are actually in California who is going to come out to your property and survey it for $800-1000? Did a real estate agent tell you that was what it would cost?

If you are depending on the county GIS maps and the representation of the real estate agent who sold you your home, you are on very thin ice in your opinion.

There is no dispute until you get a survey. Get one done and then come back here with the results.

[kacsecat]

Yes, the map referenced was the Parcel/Assessor's Map from San Bernadino County and while I understand that survey is the only true means of determining exact property lines I had hoped that the dimensions indicated on that map were at least within +/- 5' on a 1/4 acre lot. Is the lesson here that such a parcel map should be completely discounted for any purpose of determining general lot lines? Fences are rare in this area with with properties ranging from 5000-12000 sqft with mostly natural vegitation which does not therfore even suggest a property lines.
As to the survey, yes, I was given a name & contact info of a local surveyor when we were in the process of purchasing and told he quoted $750 to survey that particular parcel. It's an 11900 sqft lot, in a traditional mountain neighborhood. What should be the general range for the cost of a survey for such a property?

[jk]

It's not a matter of the assessor's map not listing accurate dimensions, it's determining where the lot lines actually are. What are you using for a reference point in making these measurements? How are you determining the direction a line runs? Those are only two of the myriad questions that must be answered to be able to accurately determine your lot lines.

[kacsecat]

Understood. I reviewed every contiguous lot to our parcel according to the assessor’s map and well as those 2-3 properties up & down (and even across) the street. I then measured off their lots, per the indicated frontage dimensions from the public street. In seeing how those dimensions come together collectively (or possibly not) and referencing areas in other neighbor's lots where there appears to be a functionally agreed upon lot line (yes, making an assumption that a lot line would fall somewhere in the 10' between two separate neighbor's structures) I felt confident that I was able to (unofficially) determine where the lot lines generally fell (a +/- 3-5' MOA but quite frankly closer to 2’). I did not note any overlaps or inconsistencies (certainly nothing egregious) and in coming to the same general 2’ area from multiple directions of measure it appeared reasonable that the lot line was in the very near vicinity. That being said, the structure then appears to fall almost completely on our parcel (98%).

A finer point/question, if there are no survey markers to indicate otherwise how could there be trespass on my part or for that matter either owner’s part? I’ve made suppositions based on hearsay from the realtor that the neighbor built, used or had anything to do with the tree house structure (simply a common sense assumption given where it was positioned). If you take my 110.8’ frontage lot dimension and place it on the street and slide it up or down the street with even a +/- 3-5’ MOA then it still appears the structure would fall at least ½ or more on our parcel, depending on direction shifted. That assumes a v-e-r-y generous MOA. Even if one were to assume that the structure was built by them and their personal property, is it trespass for me to be in/under/on it if it appears to fall on my parcel? Is there some sort of assumption made that having their personal property on part of the parcel lends credence to their claim to the land? For all I really know it was built by the previous owners of my parcel, rudely right up against the property line overlooking the neighbor's house (just to illustrate the assumptions I am making).

The good news is that nothing has been done, said or otherwise acted upon. I’m simply making inquiries in advance of taking any step. Paying for a survey is just an expensive pill to swallow, although I understand it is the definitive option. I just want to know if there are any other reasonable steps I could take before getting to that point. I’d also love to hear from someone as to the range I should expect to pay for a survey. I’ve seen references on this site to 1-2% of the property value ($185k estimate). Am I really looking at $1850-3700?

[LandSurveyor]

Is the lesson here that such a parcel map should be completely discounted for any purpose of determining general lot lines?

These maps have caused a lot of problems where no problems actually exist. How accurate are they? They might be spot-on. My county GIS is historically the best in the state and has won national recognition. It's administrator is the highest paid county employee. But my side lot lines on my 1/5 acre lot appear to be about six feet off. My neighbor would probably be mortified to see that her flower garden appeared to be mostly on my property, when no such situation exists.

I can't guess what a survey of your property might cost. If you do have it surveyed, I would recommend that you ask the surveyor to locate and place on his plat map any apparent encroachments.

[eapls2708]

Mountain property. Resort area. Smallish lots. Sounds like big Bear.

The lots around Big Bear, like many other mountain resort areas in CA are parts of subdivisions reflected on filed maps. If that is the case, just because you don't see the lot corner monuments doesn't mean they don't exist. They may be in the brush or even a bit below the ground surface.

The cost you were quoted, $750, seems a bit low but not really out of line if the surveyor is familiar with your subdivision, is aware that much of the monumentation remains in place, has experience that the monumentation within this subdivision (or at least in other subdivisions performed by the same original surveyor) tend to agree well with dimensions shown on the subdivision map, and has an office located fairly close to the site (minimal travel time).

If any of those conditions is not true, then a reasonable cost could go up pretty drastically. At $750, your surveyor is probably not planning on filing any maps, or perhaps a Corner Record at the most. If a Record of Survey is required, the County map review fee alone may easily exceed $750, and $750 almost certainly wouldn't cover the surveyor's efforts to complete the survey, prepare and submit a Record of Survey. I don't practice in SB Co., but I understand that their map review fees are notoriously high, sometimes exceeding the fee that the surveyor charged his client to perform the survey and prepare the map. The county where I had my private practice charges $135.

There are five conditions that, when encountered in the course of a survey, make filing a Record of Survey mandatory under State law. Sometimes the requirement is pretty straightforward, and sometimes it is a matter of professional judgment as to whether the circumstance (such as a material discrepancy between record dimensions and dimensions actually measured).

In your situation, you are concerned about a structure belonging to a neighbor possibly being in part or in whole on your property. Even if a Record of Survey is not required under State law, you want some manner of map that will show where that tree house is relative to your property boundary. Make sure that the surveyor you've already spoken with and any others you may speak with understand that. I doubt that the $750 fee includes such a map.

If your property is not part of a subdivision, if monumentation truly is nonexistent on your lot and/or relatively close by, if there are obstructions on your property and/or other locations from which a surveyor would need to measure in order to establish your lines, if a Record of Survey map is required, a reasonable fee could easily reach four or five times what you were told.

As to how you described roughly determining where your property lines are, you are on way too thin a basis to assert that a structure which may be near a line is encroaching. If your lots are both part of a subdivision, it is most likely that the dimensions shown on the Assessor's Parcel Map were taken directly from the filed surveyor's subdivision map, and so are likely fairly reliable.

BUT those dimensions are likely incomplete, and you did not describe that you measured from a nearby precise point that has any direct and precise relationship to the lot lines. You stated that you measured from your neighbors' lots. Well your lot is 110' wide, and I expect that your neighbors' lots are at least 50' wide. so from what point on or in these lots did you measure. You said something about a line that seemed to be locally accepted as a lot line. That's very dangerous ground (no pun intended) that most surveyors are afraid to include in their opinion. Any measurements made that are not made in reference to the original monuments of the survey are essentially worthless at best and can be very misleading at worst.

If you are going to make any assertions about encroachments, you need a survey performed by a licensed surveyor.

If the treehouse was not represented to you as being part of the real estate purchase, then it is not yours, regardless of whether it is found to be on your lot or not. If it is found to be on your lot, you can ask (or demand if necessary) that your neighbor remove it. whether it is considered to be personal property or part of the real property is a little foggy with a treehouse. The tree is clearly part of real property under CA law. The treehouse, being permanently affixed to the tree, which has it's roots in the ground would seem to me to be part of the real property, but I don't know.

What I do know is that if you have no basis, beyond the belief that it may be on your lot, that it is yours (no understanding of having bought it with the lot, as that understanding was when you made the purchase), then it is not yours and you cannot legally just take it over or dismantle it. If it is found to be on your lot, you may be able to dismantle it after giving your neighbor (the rightful owner of the treehouse) ample opportunity to remove it, but there are steps you will need to take before then. Since this thing sounds almost like a cabin in a tree as opposed to a kid's fort made of remnant lumber, it probably has substantial value and you will need to seek legal counsel before removal.

There are also steps you can take to prevent the treehouse's existence from ripening into the basis for a prescriptive easement. Ask your attorney about how to do that per Civil Code §813, and any additional steps you should take. You can probably, under that and other code sections, grant revocable permissive use should any portion of the treehouse be later found to be on your lot. That way, you put your neighbor on notice that you believe that it probably is at least part on your lot, reserving the right to ask them to remove it at such time that you are able to definitively ascertain it's relationship to the lot line by survey.

Until you have a survey, you have no real basis to assert ownership of the ground below it in insisting that they remove it. If it is a privacy issue, you may have grounds along those lines, but that's well out of my area of expertise, so again, get advice from a local attorney on that score.

I wish you success in getting the matter resolved.

[kacsecat]

eapls2708- You called the area precisely and gave me some great information. Thank you to everyone that has been so helpful and provided such great info. I'm certainly going to hold off taking any action myself with the treehouse and will poke around the property a bit more and see if I can't find an original monument somewhere and then pursue the survey as needed from there. Thank you!