How to Get Social Security for Multiple Family Members With Disabilities

[crewofnine]

I will try to make this as concise as possible. John and Jane met in 2008. At the time, John had three sons. Two from his first marriage which ended in divorce (and who have no disabilities; however, John is paying $843.00/month in child support for his first two sons, now age 14 and 11, who primarily live with their mother); and Mark, who is now five years 7 months. Mark has been receiving survivor benefits since 2007, because John's second wife - Mark's biological mother - passed when Mark was 7 months old. At three (06/10-10/10), Mark was diagnosed with PDD-NOS, as well as a chromosomal malformation called Tetrasomy 18P. Jane has been his primary caregiver since 10/09.

Jane came into the marriage with one daughter (grown) and two sons. Daughter and younger son (younger son lives primarily with his father) have no disabilities. Middle son Jacob (just turned 17) has been diagnosed ADD, Bipolar II, and depressive disorder, all of which have substantially interfered with his schooling. He was required to repeat second grade and will therefore be 19 and @ two months when he graduates HS.

John and Jane married 02/14/10, and had a son 06/21/10. So far no disabilities with the baby. Jane has bren required to be full time SAH caregiver for Mark, who cannot be placed in a mainstream daycare or oreschool due to aggression and violent acting out. It has been tried and he has been kicked out.

On February 23, 2010, Jane was diagnosed with DVT and Pulmonary Embolism, and has since been diagnosed with chronic venous insufficiency, which prevents me from working and qualifies as an SS disability.

So here is where things stand in our household:

*John has no known disabilities, but works in the struggling construction industry. After paying $843 child support, taxes, and insurance, his bi-weekly paychecks average $450. That is a monthly income of $975 or annual income of $11,700. There are no bonuses or chances for overtime.

*Jane is now fully disabled, but is still full time caregiver to Jacob, 17, disabled; Mark, 5, disabled, and Jack, 2.

*Jacob is disabled with Bipolar, ADD, depression, and school performance issues. He turned 17 in March but still has two full years of HS to complete. He lives with us 100% but we receive no child support for him.

*Mark, 5, is disabled with PDD-NOS, Tetrasomy 18P, an iq of 64. At this time he receives $941/month in survivor benefits due to the death of his biological mother.

*Jack, 2, no known disabilities.

To sum up, we are trying to support a family of 5 on a monthly income of $1,916.00, or annually $22,992.00. This is obviously not working out very well.

My question is, what is our best route to try to apply for additional SS benefits? Is it for me to try to get full disability, or try to get it for Mark and Jacob, or just apply for everything/everyone and see what sticks to the wall? We are going to have to try to find some other assistance programs as well, but the first thing I want to get rolling with is SS.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, as well as any suggestions regarding other programs that might help us. Thank you.

[Dogmatique]

If Jane is disabled, Jane needs to think about going for SSDI. Mark is getting more in survivor benefits than be would if he qualified for SSI because of his own disability (which is something that you all need to consider too - Mark's survivor benefits won't last forever, and that income is going to drop significantly even if he IS considered disabled).

John may need to find a second job.

And this is going to sound harsh, but the courts may well tell John that he has no business creating more children (Jack) when he was obviously struggling support the other children he has.

[Janke]

File SSI disabled child claim for Jacob. SSA should make both a childhood and adult decision for him since he is so close to age 18, but one could be an approval (under childhood rules) and the other a denial (under adult rules). And if he ever held a part-time job of any kind, any amount, he will also have to file for SSDI. It all can be approved or denied. Parental income will be used in determining eligibility until he is age 18. Save all pay stubs from now on. All of them. The court ordered child support will be excluded. You have to prove both that it is court ordered and that it is being paid.

File an SSI disabled child claim for Mark. It will be denied for excess income from the survivor benefits and no decision will be made about disability. Around age 17, you can consider filing a Childhood Disbility Beneficiary claim to keep his survivor benefits going past age 18. Way too early now. Can't tell you the outcome.

Jane should file an SSDI and SSI claim. It is not the name of the illness that determines a case is approved or denied, it is the severity of the symptoms. Jane could be found not disabled. When did Jane become disabled and did she work 5 years in the 10 year period before that paying Social Security taxes? Her SSDI claim could be denied for lack of insured status, regardless of the severity of her medical problems. You didn't say anything about her work history in the last 10 years, but she was busy having babies and raising children so she might not have worked. An SSI claim could be approved if spouse's income is low enough. SSI starts with gross pay, excludes court ordered child support that is paid by John. Court ordered child support paid by Jane (if she pays any to her absent child) would not be excluded. Allocations would also be made for the 17 year old if he is not on SSI and while he is a full time student (proof would be required) after age 18. An allocation would be made for Jack the 2 year old but none for Mark, the 5 year old since he has survivor benefits that exceed the allocation. If after all these allocations, there is some SSI payable to Jane, then there would be no deeming to Jacob even under age 18.

If Jane can get SSDI, it could make her ineligible for SSI due to her own excess income. There could possibly be some benefits for Jacob and Mark and the absent son, if she has worked enough years. But there could be zero benefits to the children if her benefit uses up the family max. She may be stepmother to Mark, but she never supported him; his deceased mother did.

I count up a possibility of 8 claims. 2 for SSI disabled children, 1 for SSI disabled adult, 1 or possibly 2 for SSDI, 3 for auxiliary benefits for Jane's children. Could end up with no money at all, but you won't know if you don't apply.

Would take about 5 hours of interview time. Start online now so you can be as thorough as possible in the disbility reports and it could take a few hours off the office interview time. But the three SSI claims should be done face-to-face in the local office. Bring all pay stubs. Save them forever. Bring bank statements and proof of IRA's, 401k's, real estate, life insurance, vehicles, rental agreements, child support orders, everyone's SSN's.

The three auxilliary claims might not be taken unless Jane is found disabled, so that would be done later. The CDB claim for Mark won't be taken for 13 years from now.

If there is any SSI approval for anyone, all documents proving income, resources, number of children in the home need to be saved and reported when it changes and that could be every month. For as many years as SSI is paid. It is a complex family arrangement and will create a complex SSI record.

I agree with the harsh statement made by the previous poster. Between Jane and John, they have seven children that they cannot now support. It also seems morally wrong to me that Mark, a 5 year old disabled child, is providing the income to pay about half of the support for this family of five.

[crewofnine]

Sorry ... Was really just focusing on SS situation in my first post. This is going to be a bit long, but I feel I need to clarify our history, as it seems some misconceptions about how we got in this mess may be slightly (and understandably) offputting those who are reading and responding.

"If Jane is disabled, Jane needs to think about going for SSDI."

I typo'ed in my initial post. My DVT/PE happened in February of THIS year, not 2010. Up until then, I was running a modestly successful home business to supplement our income, and we were doing okay. Not swimming in money, but able to make ends meet. Since I have developed chronic venous insufficiency in the wake of the thromboembolism, things have gone downhill fast. Between the constant edema, pain, and the often debilitating side effects of my medications (particularly Coumadin), it is really about all I can do to keep our house clean, laundry and dishes done, meals cooked, and ensure that the 2 year old is not eating the cat food.

"Mark is getting more in survivor benefits than be would if he qualified for SSI because of his own disability (which is something that you all need to consider too -Mark's survivor benefits won't last forever, and that income is going to drop significantly even if he IS considered disabled)."

We are aware that survivor benefits would normally end when Mark reaches 18/19 (depending on his graduation date), but from what I am reading on the SSA site, his survivor benefits should continue indefinitely since he himself is disabled.

Also, maybe I am reading this entirely wrong, but it seems from all the SSA website pages that John should be receiving survivor benefits as well as Mark, since he is the caregiver for their underage child. I realize a widower's survivor benefits would normally cease upon remarriage, but also it seems that exception is made for a remarried widower who is caring for an underage and/or disabled surviving child. Again, maybe I am reading this wrong; I guess I will need to call the SSA on Monday and try to reach someone who can clarify for me.

"John may need to find a second job."

He is certainly looking for a BETTER job. His child support amount was set in 2003 at the time of his divorce from his first wife, when he was making literally double what he earns now. After his second wife passed away, he was unfortunately out of work a good deal in the process of grieving, and was laid off. The job he has now was intended to be temporary while he found one more in line with his experience and qualifications, but finding a better one has been much harder than expected due to the economy and its effect on the construction industry. My father in law, who has 20 more years' experience in the same industry, and was laid off two years ago; he has not yet been able/willing to find ANY job and my husband's parents are living off their rapidly depleting retirement as a result. I feel fortunate that my husband was not too proud or stubborn to take a position that was far beneath where he should be, because he realized that something was better than nothing.

Also, luckily, I was a family law paralegal throughout my 20's and early 30's, so I can get his child support reduced to the correct amount for his current salary, and that will free up an additional $400 or so per month for us. His ex wife is remarried and her new husband makes a decent living, so we do not have to worry that the reduction will take food off the table of my stepsons ...they just may have to wear shoes from Payless rather than Foot Locker.

"And this is going to sound harsh, but the courts may well tell John that he has no business creating more children (Jack) when he was obviously struggling support the other children he has."

This does not sound harsh; I have never been a fan of people who plowed out children and then expected government programs to support them. And I certainly don't mean to sound defensive, but I would like to clarify: with my three older kids, I was never so much as on WIC. I have supported them independently from birth and worked my butt off to do so. My husband has never missed a dime on his child support, and none of our children have never missed a meal (or had one provided by welfare, or a checkup provided by CHIP). We do have good health insurance and I am good at making money go a lonnng way at the grocery store.

Mark's survivor benefits began at his mother's death when he was 7 months, and with the intense period of grief my husband suffered, it was very fortunate. He certainly did not expect his wife to simply drop dead at the age of 31 of heart failure. But he also did not expect to have to go back to work at half his accustomed salary, so it was a darned good thing he had the survivor benefits.

Now, many recent changes in our lives have just knocked us down one after the other, further and further. It is simply very difficult, and we have had to cut a lot of corners and get extremely creative. With the economy as it is, the family courts are seeing multiple cases every day where child support obligors are requesting a reduction to reflect their reduced circumstances.

And really, the birth of Jack has nothing to do with either the obscene amount of child support we are paying, not does it affect what we legally qualify for in terms of legitimate disability assistance from the SSA. My husband and I (and his late wife) have paid into social security since we all got our first jobs as teenagers, so I find it hard to feel guilty about taking advantage of its assistance until we are back on our feet. That is what these programs are for.

Mark was not diagnosed with autism, mental and language delay, and his other disabilities (or become impossible to place in daycare, so I could not work full time even prior to my own disability), until after the birth of Jack. Jack also did not cause Jacob's recent diagnoses with Bipolar or depression, or his earlier ADD diagnosis. I did not develop thromboembolism because we had another baby; in fact my hematologist suspects the initial blood clot was (ironically) caused by the hormones in the much stronger birth control pills I was switched to over the winter.

And in any case, although I don't really feel I should have to justify our having had Jack at a time when we were doing okay financially, Jack was a "pill baby"...we were using birth control religiously when he was conceived, and no one was more shocked than we were when we saw the positive test. I had just turned 37, DH was 38, and having another child was the last thing on our list of things to do. I am, however, pro-life and have cherished each child God has gifted me with (biologically or via marriage), so not having him was simply not a consideration. I guess the one silver lining to my condition is that I can never take hormonal BC again, so it's back to the old fashioned condom for us, and DH will be having a vasectomy as soon as we can afford it, since I also cannot have voluntary surgery of any kind.

[Janke]

The annual earnings test applies to John's eligibility for survivor benefits and would reduce any that he might qualify for if he were still unmarried. However, his remarriage before age 60 ends any possible survivor benefits on his deceased wife. Period. No additional exceptions for a child with a disability. For survivor benefits, SSA won't even make a decision about disability before the child is age 16 and that is only if the widow/er is entitled and earning under the annual earnings test.

Sounds like you must be insured for SSDI yourself if you had a profit in your recent home based business as long as you filed a self-employment tax return and paid the self-employment taxes on that profit and have at least 5 years of either wages or self-employment profit in the last 10 years. The earlier years's earnings will help increase any monthly amount you might qualify for and make it possible for all of your minor children or disabled adult children to qualify for benefits on your record. It is then also possible that there would be no SSI at all for you because of the combined income from your SSDI and a portion of your spouse's earnings after the various allocations. Not a simple computation though.

It might be possible for Mark to qualify for survivor benefits after age 18 if he meets the adult criteria for being disabled and those benefits would last as long as he remained disabled, unable to sustain substantial gainful activity and be unmarried.

Jacob could potentially qualify for SSI and a disabled child if the parental income is low enough after all the allocations and exclusions and also might continue to qualify after age 18 for both SSI and auxilliary benefits on mother's SSDI if she is approved until he is no longer disabled and remains unmarried. Also not a simple computation.

But none of this will happen if no claims are filed and only questions are asked. Start online and finish in your local office.

[crewofnine]

Janke, thank you for taking the time and trouble to write out such detailed information regarding our options. I have note folders for each of us on my phone, and have c&p'd your suggestions for each family member. I'm a compulsive listmaker, so your specific suggestions and info have helped me create a concise list of what I need to get rolling on tomorrow. My MIL's mother just passed and much of the family is out of town this week for the funeral, but I will be preparing paperwork, gathering documentation, and setting appointments so I am ready to go as soon as they are back and I have assistance with the little ones.

"Parental income will be used in determining eligibility until he is age 18. Save all pay stubs from now on. All of them. The court ordered child support will be excluded. You have to prove both that it is court ordered and that it is being paid."

No problems there, we have certified copies of the court order and proof of all payment through the AG's office. Jacob just turned 17 in March and will begin his junior year this fall (he repeated 2nd grade) so he will not graduate HS until he is 19 and 2 months. We have been blessed with an offer of a spot for him in our school district's Odyssey campus, which I believe 110% will make the difference between him graduating or dropping out.

For the sake of harmony between households I have not in the past pushed the issue of child support from his father, but on my to-do list is to file for that. It will likely be assessed at 40 hrs a week X minimum wage, because his father prefers video games to employment, but even a couple hundred a month would cover the copays for his psychiatrist and meds. And it would also be good if we could go ahead and start learning the SS system, in case the time ever comes when Jacob needs to file as an adult on his own behalf. He has a college fund that will cover any university he could possibly want to go to, but keeping a depressed, ADD, Bipolar young adult focused on college classes can be a bit challenging.

The big thing we have going for us there is that Jacob is something of a guitar prodigy, and we have hammered it home to him that if he intends to be a professional musician, the way to go about it is NOT to form a garage band with his friends; he needs a formal education that will include music theory, writing, and other genres of music besides Ozzy Osbourne.

"File an SSI disabled child claim for Mark. It will be denied for excess income from the survivor benefits and no decision will be made about disability."

Do you think there is any chance, if he were assessed disabled now and perhaps qualified for disability and SSI, it would come out to more if we gave up his survivor benefits? Maybe this is not even a possibility, it is just something DH asked about.

I do have a long and detailed documentation regarding his diagnoses. I took him to his pediatrician when he was 3 regarding his speech, and she recommended a speech pathologist. SP confirmed his receptive/expressive speech were at about 12-18 months, and referred him to a pediatric neurologist (I also took him to an audiologist and opthalmologist just to be safe, but he was fine there).

The PN performed a sedation brain MRI and documented abnormally migrated brain tissue, then ran a complete genetic mapping which showed the Tetrasomy 18p (which is accompanied by a wide range of lifelong disabling issues, both mental and physical).

I then went through the school district's diagnostic program which included a speech therapist, behavioral therapist, child psychiatrist, diagnostician, and physical therapist. Their findings were PDD-NOS, emotional disturbance, IQ of 64, severe speech delay, and hypotonia. Since then I have had him enrolled in their early intervention program; 3 hrs a day 5 days a week, where he has received physical, behavioral, social and speech therapy. I did also try a part time preschool for socialization, but that was a disaster. His IQ will be reassessed next year because they do not consider them valid until 6 years of age, but even if he goes up 10-15 points, he will still be considered mentally disabled.

"Jane could be found not disabled. When did Jane become disabled and did she work 5 years in the 10 year period before that paying Social Security taxes? Her SSDI claim could be denied for lack of insured status, regardless of the severity of her medical problems."

Actually I was a single mom the majority of the time, so I did work. I just scribbled out my work history and salaries on scrap paper, and this is an approximate total after I left college in 1994: 12 years 6 months full time (starting as a receptionist and moving up to legal secretary, legal assistant, then paralegal a few years later). Salary began at $25k in 1993 and was up to $48k plus bonuses by 2000. I resigned spring 2001, had my now-11-year old, then went back to work in 2003 closer to home in suburbia (which meant the super high salaries of downtown were out) at $36k. Stayed until early 2008, then started my home business so I would be there for my kids more.

Met DH in mid 2008, dated a year and a half, married 02/14/10, had Jack 06/21/10, continued my home business until this past February 23.... when I woke up with what I thought was a charlie horse. A week later I finally went to the ER at DH's insistence, and turned out to have a blood clot almost the entire length of my calf, as well as a pulmonary embolism (and a five day hospital stay). I have not had a day without severe edema, pain, weakness, periodic fainting spells, and just generally feeling like crap since. Was then diagnosed a couple of weeks ago with Chronic Venous Insufficiency.

According to my medical team, this is permanent and will likely deteriorate with a 28.5% chance of death within 10 years; and stuff like shunt operations, ulcer closing procedures, and venous bypasses to look forward to. Amputations are also a good possibility.

"Court ordered child support paid by Jane (if she pays any to her absent child) would not be excluded."

I had my 11 year old exclusively until he was 8, and never raked his dad over the coals on child support, so when we made the joint decision to keep him in his school in the Dallas area for now rather than him moving to Ft Worth with me, his dad never even asked for CS from me. He makes great money and 11 year old never wants for anything, and spends as much time with us as he can. He wants to move out here, but I feel it is in his best interest to stay where he is until we are a bit more stable.

We are also going to finally take the step, as mentioned above, of reducing DH's child support to where it should be. DH has had a very hard time with this decision due to feeling guilty (which I completely understand), but he finally gets that we cannot support two of our children with half of our income.

"But the three SSI claims should be done face-to-face in the local office. Bring all pay stubs. Save them forever. Bring bank statements and proof of IRA's, 401k's, real estate, life insurance, vehicles, rental agreements, child support orders, everyone's SSN's."

We do have all documentation because I am OCD about that. Luckily we have very little debt. No credit cards at all, DH's car is paid off, only have about $2k to go before mine is paid off. All we have to worry about is rent, utiities, food to feed the hordes, and it would be nice if we could get some form of savings and retirement accounts going again.

"I agree with the harsh statement made by the previous poster. Between Jane and John, they have seven children that they cannot now support. It also seems morally wrong to me that Mark, a 5 year old disabled child, is providing the income to pay about half of the support for this family of five."

I'm sorry that it appears that way. Hopefully this rather long explanation will shed some light on the fact that we have not by any means been depending on Mark to support our family, nor popping out kids so we could live off "the system," nor do we intend to rely on SSA to support our family for the long term.

My 18 yo daughter is completely financially independent, she graduated a year early from HS in 2011 and is living w roommates, working, and about to start cosmetology school. She could not be better.

My 11 year old is supported just fine at the moment by his dad. He's a good guy with a great new fiancee and thankfully we get along perfectly.

DH works his butt off every day, 7-3 (or whenever they let them off), in the Texas heat and the Texas cold, at a job he learned 20 years ago, and never says a word of complaint; just keeps sending resumes and networking and praying. Again, he pays over $800/ month in child support for his 11 & 14 year olds (and did so for *years* before his second wife passed and Mark even began receiving survivor benefits) ...and that is NOT including the 2/6 of our $916 per month insurance premiums that cover those two boys, as well as ourselves, Mark, and Jack. DH's biweekly paychecks are @ $1,450 when his timesheets are turned in. However, once they take out @$200 in Federal/Social Security/Medicare taxes, $375.23 per paycheck for child support (or $813/month, and $422.92 per pay period for medical/dental/vision insurance (or $916.33/month...yep, I fell over when I did that particular calculation too). That leaves him with bi-weekly paychecks of around $450 net.

When I could still run my business, we were okay. Now I can't. My mother is going to help me go back and get my counseling certification this fall, which will allow me to build a career I can do more or less sitting/lying down, but it is going to take some months for that to come to fruition. Until we can make all these plans happen, we have to find ways to keep this boat afloat. I would have NO problem discontinuing any SS benefits we receive once we are stable again (except Mark's survivor benefits, which we would then start to set aside as savings for him, and any money that comes to Jacob, which again would be saved for his benefit).

Look, I am NOT one of those people who pulled a muscle in my back or suddenly and conveniently developed debilitating "depression" so I could collect SS. I have actually had herniated disks in my back for 20 years, but I simply do not consider them truly disabling ...if they start to bug me, I go to the chiro and then get back to work. This, however, is different. This is 1-2 blood draws a week. This is nonstop pain whether sitting or standing. This is either living with that, or becoming an opiate junkie, which I refuse to do. And this is "no known treatment or cure."

If we can get to where I can pull in a halfway decent living while still coping with my medical condition, then I would no longer consider myself disabled, and would stop the benefits. But as long as there is no current way for me to contribute to our budget due to true medical disability, I feel it is not unfair to ask for help from a program that was intended for exactly that, and into which all of us have paid thousands upon thousands of dollars since we all started working as teenagers.

In any case, thank you again for taking the time to respond, and for reading this novel, if you made it this far.

[Janke]

What would be the point of giving up survivor benefits of $900+ in order to qualify for $1 or $100 or $500 or $698 of SSI for Mark? Ever? And SSI can actually deny a claim when someone fails to file for all benefits possible from other sources. So that plan won't work. He will either be denied for excess income or denied for failing to file for other benefits. I think it can be a good idea sometimes to get that official denial in writing to show to other agencies who may ask about it.

Social Security is not designed as a temporary support system so if you are really able to return to some kind of gainful employment now or within 12 months, with the education you have and the physical and mental abilities you currently have, you will not be found disabled. Also, your good intent to get off the program as soon as possible has zero bearing on whether or not you are found disabled. The Social Security Administration uses medical records not morality and intent in determining eligibility. So you should be treated with the same level of respect as a lifetime welfare recipient just released from prison after a 5 year felony conviction who abandoned all their children. Now you probably have nice friends who would treat you well and are impressed by your ability to cope with all these issues, just don't expect any different treatment from SSA because of it.

I still can't tell from your novel what is your date last insured for SSDI. I suggest you go to socialsecurity.gov, open an account and request an online benefit statement. That will lay out the years and earnings in cold dollars without all the explanations of why/who. You should be able to find out if you are currently insured for SSDI (did you or did you not file a self-employment tax return for your home based business?)

Jacob's college fund would probably be seen as a resource and could make him ineligible for SSI, regardless of his disabling condition. So maybe he should go to college first before getting a lable of disabled. SSI can find all this information out even if you forget or neglect to do so and it can create a large overpayment.

You do have a great deal of stresses in your life. Filing claims for SSI and SSDI will be an additional stress. You may feel like you are jumping through lots of hoops which is true. You may get multiple denials. You may have to go through a drawn out appeal process. You may feel like it is not worth it. Find a good sounding board (others on this site may be more helpful in that than me) and get help when you need it.