Does Consent Make Any Search Lawful

[huntsab]

Police violence? Those statistics are a little harder to find.

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Police determine what is warranted, justifiable. There are no statistics. They beat a kid to death at a traffic stop while he was handcuffed, Tasered 15 times. The cop had his girlfriend in the patrol car at 4 am. There was the child abuse investigator/child molester sergeant who preyed on Explorer scouts....

[jk]

Police violence? Those statistics are a little harder to find.

yes but wasn't your posting of those states in reply to my statements of police violence being tied to other crime rates? Without some statement of police violence, the crime stats don't really mean much. While you may perceive a higher incidence of police crime in your area (which appears to have a low crime rate in general), your perception is just that. As I get older, I perceive the actions of my children to be more and more obnoxious but when I look at it in a subjective manner, I realize they have always been obnoxious and simply due to my age, I perceive it as getting worse.

[huntsab]

I was responding to your question: "is there also a real fear of robberies, rapes, assaults, and any other street crime? I tend to see a correlation with police violence and prevalence of street violence as well. Not that it justifies it but just that it is more common in high crime areas."
0 murders; 0 rapes. Small town, less than 20 police force.

[cdwjava]

Young Hispanic males say they are being searched in a way that sounds closer to a strip search by the police in our community.

If they are using the term "strip search," what EXACTLY is occurring?

Even with consent, a true strip search in a public place will generally be a no-no.

They are commonly stopped walking down the street. Police search them, including the contents of their pockets, they check their eyes.

If they are contacted consensually or with reasonable suspicion, the cops can certainly ask for permission to search them. If they agree, well ...

And if their eyes are being checked, it sounds as if the people being stopped are thought to be under the influence of drugs. These stops wouldn't be taking place at oh-dark-thirty at night, would they?

One mother told me that the police donned latex gloves and put their hands inside her son's pants, front and back, because that is "where suspects hide drugs." I've never heard of this but I was wondering how far police could go as long as the suspect did not object? These young men are not under arrest or on probation.

These "young men" should be told not to give their consent, then.

It's unlikely the police are just randomly targeting people and searching inside their trousers for drugs. There is a reason for that. I suspect that the people they are stopping are suspected of slinging dope, and that they are not objecting to the searches. It's not uncommon for locals to find ways to hide dope in the seams of pants, in underwear, in crotches, in special pockets IN the underwear, etc. A true strip search would not be permissible in public, and what you describe is NOT a "strip search." It's pushing the envelope of propriety, but depending on the actual details, not necessarily improper.

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Why would anyone voluntarily consent to a search, knowing they would be arrested for a crime, when all they would have had to do is say "no"? It is doubtful people are simply "idiots."

You'd think so ... yet, they do it all the time. I suspect it is because they believe the cops will search anyway, OR they hope if they agree to the search the officer may believe they're clean and not do it ... o rdo it poorly.

Of course, they may well be half baked and not quite recall if they have any dope on them at all! I have had that happen dozens of times ... "Oh! I forgot about that!"

Many people do not know their rights or are not confident in their knowledge in the moment.

That may be so, but that doesn't change the fact that consent makes the search legal (most of the time).

Personally, I add a caveat telling people that they do not have to agree to my search ... and since my contacts are usually at least audio recorded, they can't later argue they did not know they could decline.

Also, police are allowed to pat down the outside of our clothes.

With some articulable suspicion (see Terry v. Ohio).

If police would simply respect everyone's 4th Amendment protection against unreasonable searches we would live in a more just world.

If the police did NOT respect their 4th Amendment rights, they wouldn't even ask for consent, would they? By asking for consent or searching with articulable probable cause, they HAVE respected the 4th Amendment. If searches are being conducted outside the law, then someone needs to complain or take action.

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I tend to see a correlation with police violence and prevalence of street violence as well. Not that it justifies it but just that it is more common in high crime areas."
0 murders; 0 rapes. Small town, less than 20 police force.

In smaller communities people tend to view anything unusual or out of the norm as being a horrendous crime wave. We have an auto theft, and there are demands for increased patrols. One woman complains her boyfriend sexually assaulted her, and people demand to know what we are doing to curb sexual assaults. Ad nauseum.

The point is that FEAR of crime often has nothing to do with ACTUAL crime. And the stats you posted were, I suspect, from the UCR index of part 1 crimes, these have nothing to do with the lesser offenses that tend to greatly overwhelm the greater ones and are more well known in smaller communities and NOT reported to the state.

[jk]

I was responding to your question: "is there also a real fear of robberies, rapes, assaults, and any other street crime? I tend to see a correlation with police violence and prevalence of street violence as well. Not that it justifies it but just that it is more common in high crime areas."
0 murders; 0 rapes. Small town, less than 20 police force.

but there are robberies, thefts, burglaries, and assaults.

so, just how many incidents of excessive police violence do you think you had in 2010?

[huntsab]

Cdwjava, I used the term strip search because it is closer to that, than what I think a traditional search would look like. They touch the men's genitals. I took the mother to the FBI and she told them herself. They wrote everything down and yawned a lot.
Fullerton hired Mike Gennaco to evaluate the FPD after the Kelly Thomas homicide. Is there a governmental agency that would do that? We can not afford Mr. Gennaco's fee.

[jk]

I doubt the cop is getting their jollies. Do you think the cop wants to touch their junk? I presume it is a common place to hide drugs so it gets searched. Tell them if that gets them worked up, wait until they go through a complete body search entering jail.

Somebody needs to figure out why they are being searched and if the cop either had permission or PC to perform the search. Speculation sucks.

[cdwjava]

Cdwjava, I used the term strip search because it is closer to that, than what I think a traditional search would look like. They touch the men's genitals. I took the mother to the FBI and she told them herself. They wrote everything down and yawned a lot.

You took the "mother" ... are these "children" minors? Or are they adults? Did THEY tell the FBI what happened, or was it just mom (who was not there)?

What you describe would be nearly impossible. It would be nearly impossible to reach down a person's pants and touch his "junk" without first having him drop his trousers, and that would certainly attract attention on the streets. Not to mention I can think of no officer who would remotely consider this sort of thing! I don't care if you have a half pound of dope under your scrotum, I'm not touching it! If I have good cause to believe you are holding in your boxers or tighty-whiteys, I'm getting a search warrant and doing it right, or if probable cause to believe a crime has been committed, I am arresting you and letting the jail staff find it!

Have you considered for a moment that you are being sold a bill of goods that might be exaggerated or outright false?

Tell ya what ... if officers in this town are stopping people without cause, reaching down into their pants and fondling them, then there will be no end of attorneys lining up to take this case. Just have all these "victims" go en masse to speak with a civil rights attorney.

Fullerton hired Mike Gennaco to evaluate the FPD after the Kelly Thomas homicide. Is there a governmental agency that would do that? We can not afford Mr. Gennaco's fee.

All that they can do is report what they believe is occurring to the FBI, the District Attorney, the state Attorney general, or an attorney that will seek civil redress against the agency and the involved parties.