Can You Be Charged With Both Careless Driving and Running a Stop Sign

[fishboy]

My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: Michigan

I write this as I am frustrated. I am from a small town where the cops are obviously bored. One night driving home from a friends house I stopped at a stop sign and saw an oncoming care that was at least 2-300 yards away not knowing the roads were slippery I decided that I had time to get on the road and start going. Well I got halfway out onto the road and my tires were spinning and had no choice but to go so within 4 seconds(mind you my vehicle can be at a decent speed at that time.) the car was coming up really fast in my rear-view mirror. So my first instinct was to gun it. I didn't think about the roads being slippery so this kicked my vehicle almost sideways in the road. I was able to regain control no problem and kept driving no problem.

When I got home I got in the shower and had the cops knock on my door. They accused me for Careless driving which I can understand honestly and also for some reason cutting off a county plow truck on a completely different road. I did see the truck pulling out of the road commission by my house but I obviously had the right of way because I was on the main road and he was coming out of the road commission drive way. So they wanted to give me a sobriety test but my dad wouldn't let them. Mind you there was three cruisers at my house and two cops on my front porch. They were rude with their conduct when we denied them the field test which we could legally do. They also had no right to ask if we had fire arms in the house that would be on an unrelated business in which they had no right to. So we politely asked them to leave and they finally did. When I walked out to my truck in the morning I saw foot prints in the snow that weren't from my work boots. Which to me would explain why I didn't see the third officer. which was another thing that made me irate. After a month one week and two days when I thought all over one of the officer showed up at my door at 9:30 P.M.. He handed me a ticket for not only careless driving but also disregarding a stop sign.

They never witnessed me doing any of this. They also had no proof that I actually did any of this other that someone on a phone saying that I did so, which any idiot can do. I am fighting this but would like to know where to start. I have two weeks before I go in for and informal hearing. Does anyone have any tips or might be able to predict what the outcome might be? Also can they even do this?

[Dogmatique]

What on earth makes you think that the LEOs had no right to ask if you had fire arms in the house?

I'm sure other respondents will add their comments.

[Conrad Hunter]

I wonder why they asked that when you were not under arrest, nor could they enter the house. Maybe they were considering some gestapo tactics. No, they had no right to give you a DUI test. They first must witness you in control of the vehicle and thus had no probable cause to give a DUI test of any type. Lucky your father had some good sense.

The important thing is that the tickets are illegal. How could they testify? On information and belief? That doesn't work for traffic tickets or misdemeanors or much of anything else. They must have PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE. In other words, the police must witness the conduct.

A police officer can ONLY arrest someone on a misdemeanor if the officer personally witnessed the crime. Same on a traffic violation.

If a police officer does not witness it or the suspect doesn't confess, then the complaining witness has to go to the DA/SA, sign a statement under oath, and then maybe the DA/SA will issue a warrant.

The police can't issue a ticket based on the complaint of another driver. They can't even stop you on such a basis. Lets say a driver calls the police and says you are reckless or DUI. The police have to then witness you driving improperly to have probable cause to stop you. Makes no difference he is a city/county employee.

Did the other driver file a complaint of some sort? (Not that permits the ticket, but it might be useful.)

How are the police going to support the ticket when they didn't witness the conduct? The ticket is based on hearsay. Hearsay is inadmissible. Actually it is double hearsay as it is told to a police officer. Even if the other driver showed up, that testimony is inadequate, because there still wasn't any probable cause for the ticket.

There are points involved. You should fight it. If you lose in traffic court, appeal it to county court or whatever court handles appeals of traffic cases in your jurisdiction. The cops can't be allowed to get away with such conduct.

Do online or law libray research for traffic and misdemeanor law in your state so you can do into court with copies of controlling case law. Be sure to take a copy for the other side.

[free9man]

The important thing is that the tickets are illegal. How could they testify? On information and belief? That doesn't work for traffic tickets or misdemeanors or much of anything else. They must have PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE. In other words, the police must witness the conduct.

A police officer can ONLY arrest someone on a misdemeanor if the officer personally witnessed the crime. Same on a traffic violation.

If a police officer does not witness it or the suspect doesn't confess, then the complaining witness has to go to the DA/SA, sign a statement under oath, and then maybe the DA/SA will issue a warrant.

The police can't issue a ticket based on the complaint of another driver. They can't even stop you on such a basis. Lets say a driver calls the police and says you are reckless or DUI. The police have to then witness you driving improperly to have probable cause to stop you. Makes no difference he is a city/county employee.

Did the other driver file a complaint of some sort? (Not that permits the ticket, but it might be useful.)

Go back to law school bub. The police absolutely CAN issue tickets/make arrests based on the testimony/report of a civilian witness. The rules vary by jurisdiction but many, like Michigan, allow it. That witness must, of course, fully participate in the prosecution of the alleged offense and failure to do so may result in dismissal. Now if it was just an anonymous tip, with the witness not wanting to be involved, that may be an entirely different matter as the state won't be able to prove its case without that witness.

[PTPD22]

I wonder why they asked that when you were not under arrest, nor could they enter the house. Maybe they were considering some gestapo tactics.

Gestapo tactics? Really? Melodramatic much?? The cops do not need to make an arrest or have a lawful reason to enter a residence to ASK if there are firearms about. You have absolutely no information regarding the demeanor of the people at the residence, statements that were made, prior history at the residence or with anyone present, or anything else that might reasonably cause an officer to ask that question very legitimately. The cops (or anyone else for that matter) can ASK pretty much anything they want. Just because a person has the right to refuse to answer doesn't mean they aren't permitted to ASK!

No, they had no right to give you a DUI test. They first must witness you in control of the vehicle and thus had no probable cause to give a DUI test of any type. Lucky your father had some good sense.

The cops have no right to FORCE a DUI test. But, again, they have every right to ASK. There is absolutely no need to witness the person driving. Also, they do not need probable cause to give a DUI test. The DUI test is a means of establishing probable cause.

The important thing is that the tickets are illegal. How could they testify? On information and belief? That doesn't work for traffic tickets or misdemeanors or much of anything else. They must have PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE. In other words, the police must witness the conduct...

Take a look at free9man's post above.

There are points involved. You should fight it. If you lose in traffic court, appeal it to county court or whatever court handles appeals of traffic cases in your jurisdiction. The cops can't be allowed to get away with such conduct.

"Such conduct?" You mean conduct like actively enforcing the laws prohibiting dangerous driving behavior? NO! We surely can't let cops "get away" with conduct like that!

Do online or law libray research for traffic and misdemeanor law in your state so you can do into court with copies of controlling case law. Be sure to take a copy for the other side.

Conrad, you obviously have just enough knowledge to sound credible to the uninformed...and are bombastic enough to be dangerous to the uninformed. I would advise OP to consult with a local attorney and get some actual informed advice.

[fishboy]

So in other words PTPD22 your saying that they were completly in their rights? But what I am saying is they overstepped their professional bounds in asking all of those questions and the fact that the whole three cops in my town showed up that night was kind of rediculous. I am going to fight this, I know it won't go so well. Maybe I can reason with them though.

[That Guy]

So in other words PTPD22 your saying that they were completly in their rights?

It has very little to do with their rights! They have the ability to investigate and ask questions. In fact, it is their DUTY to do so! Up to and including asking you if you'd been drinking and possibly subjecting you to a chemical test. They could have pushed THAT issue if they'd wanted to, at which point in time iot would have become clkear trhat your Dad was NOT doing you any favors by intervening when "he wouldn't let them" simply because of a little simple matter called "implied consent" which you can read about here: Michigan's Implied Consent Law. And in my opinion, they should have pursued that matter further... Something odd about you not only getting home and getting in the shower (no, not the good hygiene and keeping clean part), but the fact that you chose to mention it here raises a red flag as far as I can tell!

And as far as asking about firearms, and if only out of concern for their own safety is justified. Even if it wasn't, asking the question has little consequence on the matter at hand. You're withing YOUR rights to fight the charges. And they have the obligation to prove their case that you committed the alleged violations. There are red flags as far as that is concerned as well...

For one, these allegations, while resulting out of/during one single drive from one place to another, they happened to come about as part of two independent incidents that occurred at two different time periods (though possibly close to one another time-wise) with two different drivers in two different vehicle at two different locations... The one common denominator in all of that is... Yupp, you guessed it... YOU!!!!!

Does it not strike you as being odd that the your typical average normal everyday traffic incident (someone cutting off someone else/failing to yield, following too close... etc) usually ends up with one driver cussing the other under their breath, "a bird" or two flying off, or a honk of one's horn for a few seconds... This time though, BOTH drivers thought that your actions were egregious enough that they BOTH of them felt compelled to call in their own incident? Meaning the police didn't seek out these witnesses, the witnesses contacted the police!

So where does this leave us then? Well, you've sort of admitted to the careless driving and blamed it on "not knowing the roads were slippery"... I think you're full of some hot steamy smelly stuff but i think you'll end up owning that one. As for the other one, which you deny, that too is sot of odd simply because you first described it as "I obviously had the right of way because I was on the main road and he was coming out of the road commission drive way"... But in the NEXT paragraph you said: "He handed me a ticket for not only careless driving" which is for incident #1, and then added "but also disregarding a stop sign" which presumably covers incident # 2. If you were on the main road "and he was coming out of the road commission driveway", then he would be the one having to "disregard a stop sign"!!!!


Lastly, I don't know why you're frustrated when it is clear that all this came about as a result of your own actions. And what's even sillier is you claiming this is all an "outrage", all while we will all likely be "outraged" at what your real actions constituted of that night!

Just a few matters to think about between now and your court date!

By the way, you should post both code sections you were cited for... For one, there is no such charge as "careless driving" under Michigan law!

[fishboy]

I don't understand where the disregarding the stop sign ticket came from there was only one stop sign on the whole travel of 10 minutes. And there is a careless driving charge. Trust me...

[That Guy]

I don't understand where the disregarding the stop sign ticket came from there was only one stop sign on the whole travel of 10 minutes. And there is a careless driving charge. Trust me...

I don't know if I'd trust you but I did do another search and came up with the following: Report Aggressive Driving ~ Michigan State Police On-Line Aggressive Driving Report Form.

That oughta close down that Conrad Hunter at Law shop!!!!

From that same link, what to do when apparently not only can you call in and report aggressive drivers (i.e. reckless drivers, careless drivers, Road rage, ... traffic violations)

What to do if you encounter an Aggressive Driver?

Remain calm and either pull over and call 911 or drive to a nearby venue to call the police.

Give the police as much information as possible.

Be a good witness, not a victim.

And not only can you call and report... You can even...

Report Aggressive Driving incidents online

If you wish to make a specific complaint against another driver then you must contact the local State Police post or appropriate local law enforcement agency with detailed information about the offending vehicle and driver. In addition you must be willing and able to testify in court should an arrest be made.

Even if you do not wish to make a specific complaint against an individual please take the time to report the dangerous behavior by completing the Michigan State Police On-Line Aggressive Driving Report Form.

Michigan State Police On-Line Aggressive Driving Report Form


What is the Michigan State Police doing to combat Aggressive Driving?

The Michigan State Police has launched an online web site to report Aggressive Driving/Road Rage incidents. The purpose of this new reporting method is to identify areas throughout the state that show a propensity for this type of conduct. Once these areas are identified, measures such as increased police presence, engineering studies, and strict enforcement can be undertaken.

Wait..... Shhhhhhhhhh.....




Is that the ban-hammer I hear getting oiled?

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Anyways, I couldn't find MCL 257.626b listed where I looked... That's why I though they didn't have Careless Driving?