Accident During a Right Turn Onto a Residential Street

[deancord]

My question involves a traffic accident in the State of: California

The accident was between a Toyota Land Cruiser parked/pulling away from curb, and a Honda Civic that was making a right turn onto a residential street from 35 mph zone.

The Land Cruiser was parked at the first house on the residential street, and after looking out ways and checking mirrors, signaled and began pulling away from the curb. The Civic is making a right turn onto the street, and has an unobstructed view approaching corner.

The first point of impact was the driver door/running board of the Land Cruiser, about 5 ft from door to bumper. The front Civic impacted with it's bumper about 2-3 ft. from the side. The damage continues into the fender and up into the wheel well of Land Cruiser, and shaved the cap off the top of a lug nut which is still hanging there.

After the crash, the Land Cruiser came to a rest about ten feet from where it started and the Civic finally stopped 3 houses down the block. Both cars have significant damage, the Land Cruiser had 2 estimates done and they are both near the $6,000 range. Both Upper and Lower Control Arms and the steering knuckle are bent. I don't know how much they were for the Civic, but I think they totaled it.

Both insurance companies are denying liability, here's why:

The Civic's company said their client had completed his turn, had control of the lane when the Land Cruiser pulled from a parked position and onto the street in front of the Civic. And since there is no way of proving the speed of the civic, then it cannot be a factor.

The Land Cruiser company said the Land cruiser had established itself on the road first, and therefore the right-of-way goes to the Land Cruiser. And they feel the driver of the Civic did not have control of the vehicle as it came around the corner, and that speed appears to be a factor given the extent of the damage to both vehicles.

The Civics' insurer is saying that since his exact speed cannot be proven, then the statements their client made about the accident are the facts and that is what they based their decision on to deny liability.

My question is whether you can determine speed was a factor by the extent of the damage? Why, if the Civic wasn't speeding, didn't the Civic stop at or near the first point of impact? The size of the Land Cruiser you'd think would stop the Civic.

Another question, what does constitutes completing a turn? and had control of a lane?
Would that be the point at which the rear bumper has passed the curve in the curb and the vehicle is now parallel to the curb?


Any help would be appreciated and helpful.

Thank you Dean

[jk]

this sure sounds like a school question

the most important fact, I believe, you have failed to provide: how far from the corner was the Toyota parked.

My question is whether you can determine speed was a factor by the extent of the damage?

possibly if you have a phd in engineering and access to Deep Blue.

Why, if the Civic wasn't speeding, didn't the Civic stop at or near the first point of impact?

they were shocked by the impact and simply did not stop maybe? You are inferring it was due to speed which, without other supporting facts would be simply a guess.

The size of the Land Cruiser you'd think would stop the Civic.

Not if you understand physics. Unless you can determine exactly what direction each vehicle was moving and the speeds involved, it is not possible to determine if the toyota would have halted the honda or not. It is quite likely the honda attempted to turn left to avoid the impact which would cause it to continue in that direction rather than into the toyota.

Another question, what does constitutes completing a turn?

at the point their wheel would be straight again after the turn.

and had control of a lane?

kind of a red herring but if the Honda had entered the street at all prior to the Toyota pulling out, the Honda had control of the lane. The Toy was attempting to enter the lane so they could not have control of the lane until they had fully entered the lane. Until that point, they must yield to traffic in the lane.

depending on how far the Toy was from the corner, I see this as either a shared fault or the Toyota's fault. If a considerable distance from the corner, the Toyota simply failed to yield to the Honda. If very close to the corner, it was a matter of happenstance and not truly either party's fault which would be considered to be shared fault.

and you have to remember: you are speaking of a Honda here that had just turned a 90º corner. Just how quickly do you think those things can accelerate? and not just any Honda but a Honda Civic. Not exactly comparable with a top fuel dragster for acceleration speeds. Heck, they are hardly comparable with a bicycle.

[cdwjava]

First note, yes, the damage can be used to determine the approximate speed at impact ... without a PhD.

Some questions ... What side of the street Was the Toyota on and what direction was it facing? Was it pulling out to go straight ahead, or making a U-Turn in the street?

What direction was the Civic headed before it began its turn? Was the residential street a 25 MPH street, or was it also 35 MPH?

(I presume that the Civic made a right turn onto the street the Toyota was on, and the Toyota pulled away from the curb as the Civic was approaching/passing.)

The damage on the Civic does not indicate what side of the vehicle or bumper the damage was on. And on the Toyota, was the damage stead from door to bumper? In other words, was there a long gouge along the driver's side?

The Toyota was parked in front of the first house on the street, but that does not tell us how FAR from the corner it was. Where was the Area of Impact? How far from the curb the Toyota had been parked on, and how far from the nearest cross street curb? Those distances will be quite telling in any determination of fault.

[deancord]

The Toyota was about 50 - 55 feet onto the start of the corner and After the crash it was 65 feet. The distance from where the Toyota began to where the corner curb ends and becomes straight is roughly 26 feet. Could the civic with a length of 14.5 ft. completed the turn and established control of the lane in that distance and have the damage be where it was on the two cars.

How long do you give the right of way in this situation before going? I know I had the initial responsibilty of giving the right of way, but
at what point does it become that of the car making the turn?

After the crash you can see in the photos that my tires are clearly on the street and not at or near the curb. Doesn't that show my position on the road?

In the CA DMV handbook it states,

Respecting the right-of-way of others is not limited to situations such as yielding to pedestrians in
crosswalks, or watching carefully to ensure the right-of-way of bicyclists and motorcyclists. Motorists
must respect the right-of-way of others by not violating traffic laws, such as failing to stop at a stop sign
or traffic light, speeding, making unsafe lane changes, or illegal turns.

The question of the toyota stopping the civic at impact is more of how did the damage occur to these two cars without there being some other factor at play. I wasn't trying to say the Civic got on the throttle and got this huge burst of speed, but rather it entered the corner already speeding and there was no time for either car to react. If the Civic wasn't speeding, what was the force that bent suspension parts on the Toyota and destroyed the front end of the Civic. The damage would be a lot less. I was trying to show that a civic not speeding around the corner should have had time to react apply the brakes and come to a stop sooner. And not popped up and out of the wheel well of the toyota.

I really appreciate your responses and see if I have any chance to show his company that speed was a factor. They so much as admitted they knew he probably was and since I cannot prove his speed there was nothing for me to do.

Can a 2,449 lb. hit a 5,115 car and bend steel suspension parts without a considerable amount of force behind it? What do you think I should do? I had a perfectly running car that we are now have to pay for out of pocket, because we UNFORTUNATELY dropped the collision on a few years ago. So this is why I am so frustrated and determined to show he caused this by his speed and not because I failed to yield the right of way.

Any help?

The damage was from door to bumper on the toyota and right front bumper down the fender of the civic. The civic was turning right onto the street where the toyota was on the right side going forward and it was a 25 mph street. the civic was coming from a 35 mph street.

The toyota was about 55 feet from the corner

Thanks

[That Guy]

Here's my layman's view...

The Civic's company said their client had completed his turn, had control of the lane when the Land Cruiser pulled from a parked position and onto the street in front of the Civic. And since there is no way of proving the speed of the civic, then it cannot be a factor.

The Land Cruiser company said the Land cruiser had established itself on the road first, and therefore the right-of-way goes to the Land Cruiser. And they feel the driver of the Civic did not have control of the vehicle as it came around the corner, and that speed appears to be a factor given the extent of the damage to both vehicles.

From the basic description of the incident here, and with the exception of their "speed cannot be 'proven'" (though it can be 'estimated), I would tend to agree MORE with the Civic's insurer, than with the Land Cruiser's.

Why, if the Civic wasn't speeding, didn't the Civic stop at or near the first point of impact?

Mostly, its momentum and a general physics concept known as tangential direction, as well as the fact that the point of impact was on the side of the Land Cruiser as opposed to in the rear. When two objects are moving in the same general direction (or even if one is standing still and the other is moving towards it at an angle), if/when the object moving at an angle impacts the other object on its side, then it's momentum will carry it in a direction that can be described as the tangent of the plane parallel to its direction of movement.

Had the civic impacted the land Cruiser in the rear, then, yes, you'd expect that it will stop or considerably slow down. This did not happen here as the impact, was on the side.

Also, and even if the Civic was speeding, that does not necessarily mean that he gives up the right of way to a vehicle parked at the side of the road!

Another question, what does constitutes completing a turn? and had control of a lane?
Would that be the point at which the rear bumper has passed the curve in the curb and the vehicle is now parallel to the curb?

I would say -as soon as he began his turn, he had control of the lane-.

Though it is possible that the Civic driver did swerve left to avoid the accident, that does not take away from the fact that he already had control of the lane and therefore, he had the right of way. Further proof of this is that despite the possibility that the Civic may have served slightly to the left to avoid the impact, the fact that the point of impact ended up being on the left side of the Land Cruiser and towards the front of the vehicle is all that is needed to establish that the Civic had the right of way.

Even if the Civic had swerved left into the opposite lane of traffic, it would be highly unlikely that the point of impact would start halfway down the side (and to the front) of the Land cruiser; which would suggest that at the time of impact, the Land Cruiser was at an angle to/driving away from the curb, and therefore, he had not completely established himself in the lane to claim that he had the right of way! Which is opposite of the view if the Land Cruiser's insurer.

[cdwjava]

The Toyota was about 50 - 55 feet onto the start of the corner and After the crash it was 65 feet.

Given the angle of deflection was almost certainly less than 45 degrees, and the damage was apparently from the front door to the bumper, it seems apparent that the Toyota was pulling away from the curb as the Civic struck it. That would imply that the Civic was in possession of the lane and had been there for nearly two seconds at least and that the Toyota pulled into the Civic's path. Does that mean that anyone did anything evil? No. But, if fault must be assigned, it would - in my opinion as a collision investigator - be probably be with the Toyota.

Had I taken the report, I would have likely assigned the Primary Collision Factor to the Toyota for violating CVC 22106:

22106. No person shall start a vehicle stopped, standing, or parked
on a highway, nor shall any person back a vehicle on a highway until
such movement can be made with reasonable safety.

However, as there was apparently no police report, the insurance companies are making much of their determination in the blind. Which, they can do. Even if there HAD been a police report, the insurers are not legally bound to the opinion of the police and can apportion fault as they see fit - even assigning it 50/50 if they chose.

The distance from where the Toyota began to where the corner curb ends and becomes straight is roughly 26 feet. Could the civic with a length of 14.5 ft. completed the turn and established control of the lane in that distance and have the damage be where it was on the two cars.

Yes.

How long do you give the right of way in this situation before going? I know I had the initial responsibilty of giving the right of way, but
at what point does it become that of the car making the turn?

At 55' the turn was over and the Civic was in the lane. Many of these situations come down to a measurement of feet per second. Since the turn was likely made at between 15-20 MPH that would equate to an approximate high speed of 29 feet per second, and a low speed of about 22 feet per second. At 55' prior to impact, even assuming some forward motion on the Toyota's part, the ange lf the impact, the damage, and the distance seem to clearly indicate to me that the Civic had the lane.

After the crash you can see in the photos that my tires are clearly on the street and not at or near the curb. Doesn't that show my position on the road?

You cannot cut out quickly and say, "I'm in the lane!"

Of course, I don't have the photos, so I don't know what they show.

Besides, the nature of the damage you have described indicates that the Toyota was still angling IN to the traffic lane.

The question of the toyota stopping the civic at impact is more of how did the damage occur to these two cars without there being some other factor at play. I wasn't trying to say the Civic got on the throttle and got this huge burst of speed, but rather it entered the corner already speeding and there was no time for either car to react. If the Civic wasn't speeding, what was the force that bent suspension parts on the Toyota and destroyed the front end of the Civic. The damage would be a lot less.

Many cars - including Civics - are designed with crumple zones to essentially disintegrate on impact. This is to disperse the kinetic energy in an impact and protect the occupants. So, all because there appears to be a great deal of damage, that does not necessarily imply high speeds. It would take a more thorough analysis to determine that. And such an analysis is expensive and unlikely to be undertaken in a property damage collision as you have described here.

Can a 2,449 lb. hit a 5,115 car and bend steel suspension parts without a considerable amount of force behind it?

With the impact in the right place, yes. Since the Civic likely struck the Toyota low, that increases the possibility that the angle of impact vis-a-vis the suspension was sufficient to apply significant force.

What do you think I should do?

About all you CAN do is continue to work with your insurance company. If their company comes after you for money beyond your coverage, then you have to make a decision ... spend the money to hire an attorney and fight the claim, or, pay up.

Speed will be hard to establish as a factor without skid marks of some kind, or a very pricey analysis of the damage (probably a low end of $1,000).

[That Guy]

After the crash you can see in the photos that my tires are clearly on the street and not at or near the curb. Doesn't that show my position on the road?

If the Civic impacted with the land Cruiser on the driver door, and then slid forward and hit the back of the front wheel, it is conceivable that the impact there could have slightly turned the wheels towards the left and away from the curb (i.e. forced the back of the front left wheel inwards and therefore the front of the front wheel would be pushed outwards from the vehicle). So during that 10 foot distance your vehicle traveled after the impact, it could have been forced away from the curb but not necessarily because you had already established control of the lane.

In the CA DMV handbook it states,

Respecting the right-of-way of others is not limited to situations such as yielding to pedestrians in
crosswalks, or watching carefully to ensure the right-of-way of bicyclists and motorcyclists. Motorists
must respect the right-of-way of others by not violating traffic laws, such as failing to stop at a stop sign
or traffic light, speeding, making unsafe lane changes, or illegal turns.

And really, the only condition that would apply here is the illegal turn (but even that may require some "stretching")... As far as I can tell, there is nothing to indicate that a right turn on that street was illegal, or that the Civic driver made his turn into the opposite lanes of traffic thereby impacting with you head on... The one and only condition that would apply under the "illegal turn" would be if he made his turn at an unsafe speed but without knowing what the speed is, that is only speculation.

The question of the toyota stopping the civic at impact is more of how did the damage occur to these two cars without there being some other factor at play. I wasn't trying to say the Civic got on the throttle and got this huge burst of speed, but rather it entered the corner already speeding and there was no time for either car to react. If the Civic wasn't speeding, what was the force that bent suspension parts on the Toyota and destroyed the front end of the Civic. The damage would be a lot less. I was trying to show that a civic not speeding around the corner should have had time to react apply the brakes and come to a stop sooner. And not popped up and out of the wheel well of the toyota.

Well, since we are discussing speed, it is also possible that the Land Cruiser driver drove away from the curb at a faster than safe speed, which gave the Civic driver less time to react. So the "speed" issue sort of works both ways IMO!

Can a 2,449 lb. hit a 5,115 car and bend steel suspension parts without a considerable amount of force behind it?

The weight of the Land Cruiser would really have little impact of the determination of how much force it would take to bend those steel suspension parts. So the comparison of how much each vehicle weighs is not in any way proving anything.

The amount of energy that it would take to bend those steel parts is purely dependent upon the the weight and speed of the Civic. The amount of force/energy required to bend those part is dictated by what levels of tolerances Toyota had set when they engineered that vehicle. Whether that is something that you can obtain from Toyota or not, I don't know. If you can establish a certain figure for the amount of force it wold take to bend those parts, then you MAYBE able to (theoretically) use a backwards approach to "estimating" the civic's speed by using formulas such as:
Momentum = Mass X Velocity
Force = Mass X Acceleration
Kinetic Energy = 1/2*(mass)*(Velocity)^2

Though I still am not sure how that would prove who had control of the lane and at the end of the day, that really is where the buck stops here!

[jk]

First note, yes, the damage can be used to determine the approximate speed at impact ... without a PhD.
.

well, maybe a masters but honestly, the methods the police use to determine speed in determining impact damage is so basic it is really no more than a guess in accidents such as this. It would require an engineer with a lot of specifications and information available to them as well as a fairly powerful computer to calculate the speed with any accuracy within any reasonable time constraint. The police simply do not have the information, the equipment, nor the trained personnel available to them to do the work.

The Toyota was about 50 - 55 feet onto the start of the corner and After the crash it was 65 feet. The distance from where the Toyota began to where the corner curb ends and becomes straight is roughly 26 feet. Could the civic with a length of 14.5 ft. completed the turn and established control of the lane in that distance and have the damage be where it was on the two cars.

that is a very short distance. Given the 35 mph speed (which immediately after a turn at that distance from the corner is not probable) , that is approximately what the vehicle would travel in ONE second.

Can a 2,449 lb. hit a 5,115 car and bend steel suspension parts without a considerable amount of force behind it?

well, if moving even at the speed limit, there is considerable amount of force behind the Honda. Have one hit you at 10 mph and let me know how much it moves you.

but rather it entered the corner already speeding and there was no time for either car to react.

while speed will affect the severity of the damage, I suspect you will not be able to prove the Honda was rounding that corner in excess of 35 mph, or even close. If you doubt me, go out and try taking that corner in any car less than a Corvette at 35 mph AND stay close enough to the curb after the turn to be able to hit where the Toyota was. As the speed of any vehicle increases, the ability to stay within the 8 feet or so (a common width of a parking lane in some areas) of the curb at 55 feet from the corner becomes more and more difficult.

I know I had the initial responsibilty of giving the right of way, but
at what point does it become that of the car making the turn?

once you were fully into the lane, you have control and I don't mean simply the nose of the vehicle. I mean the entire vehicle.

[cdwjava]

well, maybe a masters but honestly, the methods the police use to determine speed in determining impact damage is so basic it is really no more than a guess in accidents such as this. It would require an engineer with a lot of specifications and information available to them as well as a fairly powerful computer to calculate the speed with any accuracy within any reasonable time constraint. The police simply do not have the information, the equipment, nor the trained personnel available to them to do the work.

And, yet, there are trained officers that do these analyses all the time and in all 50 states with their conclusions being legally acceptable. In fact, insurance companies pay retired officers $200+ per hour to do these analyses. The individual analysis may not be a pure physics assignment, but they are legally sufficient to estimate speed and angle in most situations.

[sniper]

If both insurance companies deny responsibility the case should go into arbitration and setteled in that method. My guess is it has not gone into arbitration yet.