Grandchildren Removed

[Memaof7]

My question involves grandparents rights in the State of: Tennessee

our grands have been safety removed from my daughter.

The children were placed with an aunt who happens to work for DHS. The Aunt has 2 children of her own and is pregnant. They live in a 2 bedroom house with her boyfriend and now my 3 grandsons.
The case worker tells me that is not a problem, but I think it is. I also happen to know that none of that info was disclosed to the judge.

The children have lived in our home and in fact still have a room there. The caseworker tells us that they didnt and wont consider us because when they first took the children that my daughter said no, dont call my mom! She said that was because she thought she could keep me from knowing what was going on, but not that she didnt want me to have them.

The case worker told me if she has to move them she will move them to an undisclosed location and that we wont be able to visit them. She also told us that we could hire a lawyer and fight it, but that the judge listens to them.

I would give all I have to fight this, but I dont have much, would it do any good to get a lawyer and file a petition? Do we have a right to have the children, or at least a chance?

Mema of 7

[aardvarc]

My grands have been safety removed from my daughter.

Exactly what was the safety issue?

The children were placed with an aunt who happens to work for DHS. The Aunt has 2 children of her own and is pregnant. They live in a 2 bedroom house with her boyfriend and now my 3 grandsons.
The case worker tells me that is not a problem, but I think it is.

Why? On what grounds?

I also happen to know that none of that info was disclosed to the judge.

Again, what in particular is the issue; keeping in mind that by definition, such removals are intended to be temporary, and with the goal of reuniting the children with parents or finding suitable long terms solutions IF the parent(s) in question fail to follow case plans designed to foster reunification. (Judges will know this.)

The children have lived in our home and in fact still have a room there.

How long ago did the children live with you, and for what period of time? How OLD are the children in question?

The caseworker tells us that they didnt and wont consider us because when they first took the children that my daughter said no, dont call my mom! She said that was because she thought she could keep me from knowing what was going on, but not that she didnt want me to have them.

The opinions of parents whose children have been removed mean little or nothing as far as where the parents want the children to go. Whether mom was all for it, or totally against it, would have little bearing. In other words, when they remove children, it's a sign that there's some seriously bad judgement going on with the parent, thus, that parent's judgement can't and won't be factored in.

The case worker told me if she has to move them she will move them to an undisclosed location and that we wont be able to visit them.

Unless there's a visitation order in place to the contrary, CPS/DHS doesn't have to allow ANY person access to the children. Check out Tennessee Code Chapter 36-6-306. A grandparent can have standing to petition the court for visitation IF the children resided with the grandparent for a period of 12 months or more, OR if six months or more AND the grandparent was the PRIMARY caregiver to the child. The court then has to determine if there is risk of substantial harm to the child if visitation is NOT granted, based on the factors above.

She also told us that we could hire a lawyer and fight it, but that the judge listens to them.

Since they are the temporary guardians, yes, this is generally the case. If the case were at the point where more perminant orders were pending, it would be a different story...but at this point in the case, where a case plan with the mother is being fleshed out, and the children have now already been through the trauma of a removal, a judge isn't going to want to create even MORE change, knowing that the situation is temporary and is INTENDED to be changing to something more concrete on the horizon.

I would give all I have to fight this, but I dont have much, would it do any good to get a lawyer and file a petition?

Many family law attorneys will give at least an initial consultation free or for minimal charge. It can't hurt to run the situation by them, making sure to try to bring them documentation of the issues noted above (how long the children lived with you, how long ago, and if you were the PRIMARY caregiver), and get their take on it.

Do we have a right to have the children, or at least a chance?

Grandparents in Tennessee MAY have standing to petition for visitation...the issue is going to be that until the children are in some situation more grounded than temporary protective custody of the state, courts are loathe to take ANY action, at all, until the fires die down a little.

In the meantime, much will depend on what is happening with mom; how well/quickly she works her case plan, etc. The FIRST choice of CPS is going to be to get the kids back with mom, until and unless it is definatively determined that this can't/won't happen. The NEXT choice is placement with other family - like the father, if he is (a) known, (b) alive, (c) established legally as parent, and (d) not otherwise DISqualified from custody, THEN other family, including grandparents come onto the guardianship radar. If you want to be considered on that short list, the best thing you can do is treat the situation as if you'd be taking in ANY child (ie like a foster parent).

Check the website for Tennessee's foster parent programs. They should have VERY specific requirements, and the more of those that you can meet, the better your chances for temporary or perminent custody down the road (they'll want to see attendance at certain free trainings, CPR/first aid certification, criminal history on anyone living in the residence, pass a home inspection, safety inspection, etc.).

[Memaof7]

Quoting Memaof7
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My grands have been safety removed from my daughter.

Exactly what was the safety issue?

Drug use

The children were placed with an aunt who happens to work for DHS. The Aunt has 2 children of her own and is pregnant. They live in a 2 bedroom house with her boyfriend and now my 3 grandsons.
The case worker tells me that is not a problem, but I think it is.

Why? On what grounds?

Because there are 5 children (soon to be 6) and 2 adults living in a 2 bedroom house.

I also happen to know that none of that info was disclosed to the judge.

Again, what in particular is the issue; keeping in mind that by definition, such removals are intended to be temporary, and with the goal of reuniting the children with parents or finding suitable long terms solutions IF the parent(s) in question fail to follow case plans designed to foster reunification. (Judges will know this.)

Because I cannot see that any judge would think the living arrangement is suitable. I do know that it is supposed to be temporary, but the caseworker is already saying that they will back Aunt as permenant caregiver if the kids cant be reunited witht my daughter.

The children have lived in our home and in fact still have a room there.
How long ago did the children live with you, and for what period of time? How OLD are the children in question?

They lived with us for about 3 months ending Feb 10th of this year. The twins are 3yrs old and the baby is 14 mos old.

The caseworker tells us that they didnt and wont consider us because when they first took the children that my daughter said no, dont call my mom! She said that was because she thought she could keep me from knowing what was going on, but not that she didnt want me to have them.

The opinions of parents whose children have been removed mean little or nothing as far as where the parents want the children to go. Whether mom was all for it, or totally against it, would have little bearing. In other words, when they remove children, it's a sign that there's some seriously bad judgement going on with the parent, thus, that parent's judgement can't and won't be factored in.

WEll thats funny, because that was the reason cited for not giving them into our care the day they took them

She also told us that we could hire a lawyer and fight it, but that the judge listens to them.

Since they are the temporary guardians, yes, this is generally the case. If the case were at the point where more perminant orders were pending, it would be a different story...but at this point in the case, where a case plan with the mother is being fleshed out, and the children have now already been through the trauma of a removal, a judge isn't going to want to create even MORE change, knowing that the situation is temporary and is INTENDED to be changing to something more concrete on the horizon.

Trust me when I say that the babies are much more traumatized by what they are going through right now than they would ever be at our house. I hate to go and see them because everytime they cry to come to my house.

I would give all I have to fight this, but I dont have much, would it do any good to get a lawyer and file a petition?

Do we have a right to have the children, or at least a chance?

I asked this because the case worker keeps stressing over and over that as a grandparent I have no rights.

Grandparents in Tennessee MAY have standing to petition for visitation...the issue is going to be that until the children are in some situation more grounded than temporary protective custody of the state, courts are loathe to take ANY action, at all, until the fires die down a little.

In the meantime, much will depend on what is happening with mom; how well/quickly she works her case plan, etc. The FIRST choice of CPS is going to be to get the kids back with mom, until and unless it is definatively determined that this can't/won't happen. The NEXT choice is placement with other family - like the father, if he is (a) known, (b) alive, (c) established legally as parent, and (d) not otherwise DISqualified from custody, THEN other family, including grandparents come onto the guardianship radar. If you want to be considered on that short list, the best thing you can do is treat the situation as if you'd be taking in ANY child (ie like a foster parent).

Both Dads failed drug tests as well

[aardvarc]

Exactly what was the safety issue? Drug use

Ok, so that would suggest that CPS is going to want mom to receive treatment/counseling, and depending on how well/quickly she complies, they'll start making determination on whether or not to return the children to her care (reunion being the primary goal).

The children were placed with an aunt who happens to work for DHS. The Aunt has 2 children of her own and is pregnant. They live in a 2 bedroom house with her boyfriend and now my 3 grandsons. The case worker tells me that is not a problem, but I think it is. Why? On what grounds?
Because there are 5 children (soon to be 6) and 2 adults living in a 2 bedroom house.

At their ages, the three children in this case don't need their own rooms. The court isn't even going to blink at 2 adults and 6 children in a 2 bedroom house, especially on a temp basis.

Because I cannot see that any judge would think the living arrangement is suitable.

Why would it would NOT be. Until you can articulate some CONCRETE way that this is detrimental to the children, the court won't even consider it an issue.

I do know that it is supposed to be temporary, but the caseworker is already saying that they will back Aunt as permenant caregiver if the kids cant be reunited witht my daughter.

Not knowing what factors are different between you and the aunt, no one can really comment. Apparantly there is SOMETHING that they find MORE suitable with the aunt than with you. Without knowing what that something IS, we can't tell you how to increase your odds, other than by doing everything to get yourself certified as appropriate foster care material. What factors are working for the aunt and possibly against you we are in no position to speculate on.

The children have lived in our home and in fact still have a room there. How long ago did the children live with you, and for what period of time? How OLD are the children in question? They lived with us for about 3 months ending Feb 10th of this year. The twins are 3yrs old and the baby is 14 mos old.

At those young ages and for such a short time, I'm sorry to tell you that it isn't likely to be a factor that will help in any respect. Less than 6 months is "transitory" at best.

The caseworker tells us that they didnt and wont consider us because when they first took the children that my daughter said no, dont call my mom! She said that was because she thought she could keep me from knowing what was going on, but not that she didnt want me to have them.
The opinions of parents whose children have been removed mean little or nothing as far as where the parents want the children to go. Whether mom was all for it, or totally against it, would have little bearing. In other words, when they remove children, it's a sign that there's some seriously bad judgement going on with the parent, thus, that parent's judgement can't and won't be factored in.
WEll thats funny, because that was the reason cited for not giving them into our care the day they took them

Again, you're asking people who don't have the FULL facts, of EXACTLY who said what, to make commentary. Sure, mom could say "I don't want the kids going to her", but unless she gave them some concrete REASONS that they felt had some merit, it's speculation at best. I'm only saying that CPS doesn't take orders from parents who have had their children taken away.

She also told us that we could hire a lawyer and fight it, but that the judge listens to them.
Since they are the temporary guardians, yes, this is generally the case. If the case were at the point where more perminant orders were pending, it would be a different story...but at this point in the case, where a case plan with the mother is being fleshed out, and the children have now already been through the trauma of a removal, a judge isn't going to want to create even MORE change, knowing that the situation is temporary and is INTENDED to be changing to something more concrete on the horizon. Trust me when I say that the babies are much more traumatized by what they are going through right now than they would ever be at our house. I hate to go and see them because everytime they cry to come to my house.

Still, courts aren't going to want to place the children AGAIN, only to have yet ANOTHER change on the horizon. It's unfortunate that either your daughter didn't clean up her act until it came to this, or that guardianship wasn't sought until the state had to get involved...those would have been much easier scenarios and ones where the family would be in control of what happened. But if intervention from the family does NOT occur to get such children into a better/stable/safer environment, and the state has to become involved on behalf of the children, the it becomes THEIR ballgame, and they get to set the rules. The key to these things working out as the family wants them to, is for the family to act FIRST.

I would give all I have to fight this, but I dont have much, would it do any good to get a lawyer and file a petition?
Do we have a right to have the children, or at least a chance? I asked this because the case worker keeps stressing over and over that as a grandparent I have no rights.

Until they are established by a court as part of a guardianship or custody case, that's right...grandparents have no inherent rights. As it stands right now, the state is the legal guardian. If you want to challenge that at this point in the game, you WILL need the assistance of a family law attorney.