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  1. #1

    Default Do the Police Lie About Probable Cause to Search Vehicles

    Quote Quoting matchstick00
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    Now, in all reality if I tell an officer I want to record him I doubt he will allow that. Maybe in certain areas but not Detroit. What if I decline the search, the officer opens the door pulls me out and starts searching. He then finds marijuana, is this considered illegal search and seizure? Can I still be charged for the marijuana even though the search was illegal?
    It depends on how much the police officer is willing to lie.

    If the police officer is willing to say that you gave your consent (when you did not), then the mj won't be suppressed.

    If the police officer is willing to say that he smelled mj, when he did not, then the mj will not be suppressed.

    If the police officer is willining to say that he saw a baggie or rolling paper peeking out of your centre console, when in reality the baggie was out of sight in your glove box, then the mj will not be suppressed.

    Refusing consent is one of the best options that you have (the best is don't drive with mj), but refusing consent doesn't mean that you will have any meaningful remedy if the policeman searches your car after you refuse consent. Your best hope is that the policeman just goes away after you refuse consent, but many will go ahead and search anyway.

    The worst are the policemen who plant. Then you can be locked up even if you had no mj at all. Only a small minority of policemen plant, but you can't tell ahead of time which ones do plant mj in vehicles. If they plant there is nothing you can do because it is impossible to argue that a policeman planted evidence (at least without video, and even then it is difficult).

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Search of Vehicle

    Quote Quoting Clenville Tziabatz
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    About half just end the encounter and leave. About a quarter will immediately search the car anyway.
    And, of course, you have some objective source of data for this 50% stat, right? Perhaps that is your personal experience, but to imply that half of the officers out there will illegally search a car is just plain wrong.

    If you do have contraband, then the policeman can just make up probable cause -- after all, the person in the car had the marijuana -- who is a judge going to believe at the suppression hearing? The policeman, of course.
    Wow, the police in your world are all liars and make crud up all the time, aren't they? Just where is it you live?

    Policemen get promoted by how much marijuana they find, so they need to search if they want to get ahead.
    In what agency is this policy or practice in place? Certainly none that I have known of. Since it is the job of a police officer to enforce the law, finding contraband and making the occasional arrest are certainly expected, but searching every car in a vain hope to find dope would be counterproductive, time consuming, and expose an officer and the agency to unnecessary litigation.
    A Nor Cal Cop Sergeant

    "Make mine a double mocha ...
    And a croissant!"


    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns

  3. #3

    Wink Re: Search of Vehicle

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    . . . Wow, the police in your world are all liars . . .
    Like I said, over half of them won't even do the search, so they aren't liars. Even of the ones who will do the search, they only lie if the suspect has dope in the car. If the suspect has no dope, then there is no need for the policeman to lie. He just releases the driver back out into the wild with nothing lost but an hour or so of time -- no lying there. Even it the driver has a small amount of dope, it might not be enough to lie on the police report -- there probably won't be a suppression hearing, so the truth can go in the report -- all good.

    Now, if there is a large amount of mj, like a whole quart bag full, or more, then the policeman will need to articulate probable cause so that the druggie does get put away. This may involve lying, but: (i) it is for a good cause; and (ii) once the court decides to accept the lie, then the lie actually becomes the truth.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Search of Vehicle

    Quote Quoting Clenville Tziabatz
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    Like I said, over half of them won't even do the search, so they aren't liars. Even of the ones who will do the search, they only lie if the suspect has dope in the car. If the suspect has no dope, then there is no need for the policeman to lie. He just releases the driver back out into the wild with nothing lost but an hour or so of time -- no lying there. Even it the driver has a small amount of dope, it might not be enough to lie on the police report -- there probably won't be a suppression hearing, so the truth can go in the report -- all good.

    Now, if there is a large amount of mj, like a whole quart bag full, or more, then the policeman will need to articulate probable cause so that the druggie does get put away. This may involve lying, but: (i) it is for a good cause; and (ii) once the court decides to accept the lie, then the lie actually becomes the truth.
    Again I ask where it is you live where all these cops are making stuff up or breaking the law? That certainly has not been my experience in my state, and I know of no statistics that back up ANY such claim such as 50% of cops will walk away and the others will search anyway - in spite of a lack of a consent, probable cause, or articulated exigency.
    A Nor Cal Cop Sergeant

    "Make mine a double mocha ...
    And a croissant!"


    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns

  5. #5

    Default Re: Search of Vehicle

    I didn't say that half would search anyway. I said that 25 percent would just search anyway, and that the other 25 percent would search or not depending on perceived education level and on amount of respect shown the officer as the questioning becomes more leading and emphatic.

    That adds up to less than 50 percent who will search anyway.

    Also, I said in the cases where the officer needs to lie to support the search (that is, where a big bag is found), there will be articulated consent, articulated pc, articulated plain view, or articulated whatever-the-officer-needs-to-articulate. the problem is not that the articulation is missing, but that it is not true (at least not until the court says it is).

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Search of Vehicle

    Quote Quoting Clenville Tziabatz
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    Also, I said in the cases where the officer needs to lie to support the search (that is, where a big bag is found), there will be articulated consent, articulated pc, articulated plain view, or articulated whatever-the-officer-needs-to-articulate. the problem is not that the articulation is missing, but that it is not true (at least not until the court says it is).
    Again with the lying.

    So, where is the objective data to support this scurrilous claim?

    Remind me not to visit wherever it is you reside ... the cops out where you are seem to be from another decade and without any real moral compass.
    A Nor Cal Cop Sergeant

    "Make mine a double mocha ...
    And a croissant!"


    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns

  7. #7

    Default Re: Search of Vehicle

    There is no objective data either way, and there could never be. If the court believes the lie, then a scientific researcher could never detect it either. You can't scientifically study something that you cannot detect.

    All we have is our own experiences, direct and indirect. You have your experiences and your belief and I have my experiences and my belief. If you changed your belief to mine then your boss would get angry and eventually your paychecks would stop (you might or might not get to keep your pension). If I changed my belief to yours, nothing bad would happen to me. So I am free to change my belief. Still, you have not convinced me that I am wrong.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Search of Vehicle

    Quote Quoting Clenville Tziabatz
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    There is no objective data either way, and there could never be. If the court believes the lie, then a scientific researcher could never detect it either. You can't scientifically study something that you cannot detect.
    So, you admit that your percentages are simply taken from thin air and based solely upon either your personal experiences, or assumptions that you have made based upon news stories, biases, or opinions and not really based upon anything objective. Glad to hear it.

    If you changed your belief to mine then your boss would get angry and eventually your paychecks would stop (you might or might not get to keep your pension).
    Actually, if I were to start accusing my peers of being crooks and liars, I had best be able to support that claim or I'd end up being sued. I can easily hold whatever opinion I wish and not be subject to any work discipline.

    If I changed my belief to yours, nothing bad would happen to me. So I am free to change my belief. Still, you have not convinced me that I am wrong.
    I know I cannot convince you to believe otherwise. Some people just believe cops are nefarious, evil, thugs, or whatever. I can't do much about that. But, since your opinions are just that, all I ask is that you refrain from making blanket pronouncements of percentages without at least adding the caveat that it is your belief or your experience that this occurs. Since your experience and belief would seem to be in the minority of opinion in the nation, I am not all that concerned about your holding it. I AM concerned when you might try and imply that said opinion is some sort of fact without at least some support.

    Quote Quoting matchstick00
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    Heres an example:

    A buddy of mine was pulled over by an officer for no apparent reason.
    The key being that no reason was apparent to the buddy. That does not mean there was no reason to make the stop.

    When they pulled him over a lot more police officers pulled up to the scene. He had 5 lbs of marijuana in the trunk. My buddy when then taken to jail, questioned and released the next day. They didn't give him no paperwork, just told him it was pending further investigation. This was two years ago. How long until they can bring that case back up or do they feel like it can not be brought back up since he was pulled over for no reason?
    Depending on state law they might be able to wait a few years to bring it back up. There could be any number of reasons why your buddy skated. Maybe the DA did not feel comfortable with the search of the car ... maybe the DA caught that the reasonable suspicion for the stop was weak or lacking. Who knows? It might be a hundred things. With luck your friend has ceased his dope transporting ways as next time he may not be so lucky.

    Understand that if I pull you over, I do not HAVE to tell you why. There comes a time - usually AFTER we have your license and paperwork - that we will, but there is no legal obligation to inform you of the reason for the stop.
    A Nor Cal Cop Sergeant

    "Make mine a double mocha ...
    And a croissant!"


    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns

  9. #9

    Default Re: Search of Vehicle

    What happens if you did not have a lawful reason, but decide not to charge any crimes or infractions?

    It seems like nothing bad happens to the police officer in that case, and I think that is why the OP'er is saying that a policeman can pull somebody over for no reason. Policemen are not supposed to do that, but nothing bad happens to them if they do do that. I think that was his point, and, if so, it seems like a real good point.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Search of Vehicle

    Quote Quoting Clenville Tziabatz
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    What happens if you did not have a lawful reason, but decide not to charge any crimes or infractions?
    Then I might get away with breaking the law ... at least until I do it to the wrong person. But if I am inclined to lie and break the law, I am also likely to make up a bogus reason for the stop anyway.

    It seems like nothing bad happens to the police officer in that case, and I think that is why the OP'er is saying that a policeman can pull somebody over for no reason.
    The same can be said about most anybody who is inclined to lie or break the law. Even if the officer tells you why he pulled you over that will not mean he is telling you the truth in that, either.

    Policemen are not supposed to do that, but nothing bad happens to them if they do do that. I think that was his point, and, if so, it seems like a real good point.
    If they do such things, they tend to get caught eventually. But, they are the exception and not the rule, so while the issue concerns me it is hardly commonplace nor widespread.
    A Nor Cal Cop Sergeant

    "Make mine a double mocha ...
    And a croissant!"


    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns

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